This is a milestone week for Survivor, as we’re down to our final 20 artists (which I think is about what most “real” reality shows start with!). In a sense, everything up to this point has been preliminary; now we have hard, hard choices to make.

First, the bad news:

23. Otis Redding (32)
22. Miles Davis (31)
21. Sly and the Family Stone (30)

Squeaked into the top twenty: Talking Heads (26), Marvin Gaye (25), Radiohead (22), Elvis Costello (21), the Clash (21).

Starting this week, and for the next five weeks, we’ll be eliminating only TWO artists per week. Once we’re down to the top ten, it’ll just be one artist per week.

The contestants are:

The Beach Boys, The Beatles, David Bowie, Johnny Cash, The Clash, Elvis Costello, Bob Dylan, Marvin Gaye, Jimi Hendrix, The Kinks, Led Zeppelin, Prince, Radiohead, R.E.M., The Rolling Stones, Talking Heads, The Velvet Underground, The Who, Stevie Wonder, Neil Young.

Week 22 begins now.

This one is fairly easy for me.

1) Radiohead
2) Velvet Underground

I know OK COMPUTER is supposed to be a cultural landmark but I've tried again and again and I just don't see what's so special about it. Likewise virtually all their output outside of THE BENDS and PABLO HONEY although I find myself kind of liking some of their IN RAINBOWS material so my estimation of them could still rise a bit.

I really like VELVET UNDERGROUND AND NICO...but after that one, the others not so much.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't we still 'nominating' 5 artists?

Yep. My plan is that we'll keep nominating five artists until there are only five left. When there are five left, we'll nominate four. When there are four left, we'll nominate three...and so on.

So, Mr. Rumpff, got three more?

Begging to finally be let onto the boat:
1) Jimi Hendrix
2) Radiohead

Newbies on the pier:
3) Talking Heads - One fantastic album which is in my top 100, 2 fantastic songs which are in my top 400.. but it's just not enough anymore. I believe this has been mentioned before, but Talking Heads always sound a little cold. Even most of their best songs are, although obviously very good, not lovable.. if that makes sense (I have to come up with something..).
4) Stevie Wonder - I've never been a big fan of Mr. Wonder, but recently I've come to appreciate his work a little more so I let him stay on the island for a little while. Now he does have to go though
5) The Clash - London Calling is one of my favorite albums and one of my favorite songs of all time, and there's a couple more songs I really like; but this just isn't enough anymore. I have now almost arrived at the point of having to vote off one of my top 50 artists because The Clash holds the dubious honor of being #51.

Mourning the loss of two of my top-ten artists (Sly and Otis)...

Returning vote-getters:

1. R.E.M.
2. Elvis Costello
3. Beach Boys
4. Talking Heads

New:

5. Marvin Gaye -- The silkiest voice this side of Sam Cooke. His early Motown hits (both with and without Tammi Terrell) were paragons of the genre. But even those were not enough to lift him this high. "What's Going On" is, I believe, all that it is advertised to be. Thoughtful, tender, outraged, and deeply soulful.

The work to follow (which I admit to not knowing as well) has struck me as far too silly. The loverman bravado on "Let's Get It On," "Got to Give It Up," and "Sexual Healing" comes across to me as forced and lacking a baseline musicality that always shone through previously. He still has THAT VOICE, but to what end?

Even at his best, though, he is not as important and stirring a soul singer as Otis Redding and James Brown. He is missing a fundamental grit and funk that elevates these two distinct artists. With "What's Going On," though, he took soul music in another stirring direction that was matched only by Curtis Mayfield.

Ok, let's see:

5 points - The Clash
4 points – Johnny Cash
3 points – Marvin Gaye

New:

2 points – Neil Young – As I see it, not that great to be in the final countdown.

1 point – Stevie Wonder – My favourite soul artist. I just don’t relate to the genre so much.

5 pts - Radiohead - repeat
4 pts – Talking Heads - repeat
3 pts – Prince - repeat

2 pts - Led Zeppelin - Bloated. adj. (blo'tid): Much bigger than desired.

1 pt. - Stevie Wonder - Because he is responsible for "I Just Called To Say I Love You."

1. Bob Dylan
2. Elvis Costello
3. The Clash.
4. R.E.M.

and a new number five:
5. Marvin Gaye. Nothing wrong with Marvin, I just prefer everyone else who is left on the island.
I have no problem with anyone else winning Survivor.

I will (as will all of us) have a problem with choosing who to vote off over the next few weeks

Schwah,

I voted out Otis and have no plans to eliminate Marvin yet, but I almost entirely agree how you put everything into perspective, including Sam, James, Curtis...and Sly!

Hmm, my first time voting here for a number of weeks, and good grief, this is harder than i anticipated it would be.

I'm pretty certain that anyone I have already voted for is left, so...

1) [5pts] Talking Heads. Well, I like them. 'Remain In Light' is awesome, the first albums all have their moments, but on a personal level I feel a distance between the myself and the music that can prove difficult to overcome at times. But I'd just like to reiterate that I at least very much like each and every one of these 20 recordings artistes.
2) [4pts] Neil Young. The artist here that I am least familiar with. Almost all that I know of his solo career I enjoy, but there is still quite a lot that I really must soon get around to discovering. To nitpick, his tendency towards lengthy songs can (in his case) be a little arduous.
3) [3pts] The Kinks. Love all the classic singles, but as pushes become shoves, I'm more looking towards albums and as such they just about come out behind the other two on my shortlist.
4) [2pts] The Beach Boys. 'Pet Sounds' is, for me, a fully respectable recipient of the 'most acclaimed album of all time' moniker, even if I wouldn't quite have it as high. Ultimately, they rarely pop into my head when I ask myself what it is that I want to listen to right now.
5) [1pt] Johnny Cash. He seems to have become (perhaps after his final string of albums, and relatively recent loss) particularly 'cool' amongst people of my generation - something of a worshipped figure for so many people I know. I have no opposition to this, but throwing aside preconceptions, I have to say that his back catalogue comes behind the other 15 in my preferences.

I'm pretty certain that anyone I have already voted for is gone, that should of course be.

1. LED ZEPPELIN. Interesting discussion over on the Led Zep III thread this past week, which brought up the question of how much they ripped off blues songs. I think my favorite Samuel Johnson quote applies to this aspect of Zeppelin: “Your work is both good and original. But the parts that are good are not original, and the parts that are original are not good.”

2. MARVIN GAYE
3. THE KINKS
4. RADIOHEAD


And, new this week:
5. THE BEACH BOYS. We’re now getting to artists who are so good that my fundamental question about them is: How much could they do? Well, Brian Wilson, for one year, may have been the finest songwriter/arranger in rock history. And nobody could harmonize like these guys.

But. My one complaint about Radiohead was their limited emotional palette. In a way, the same thing applies here. On their recorded output, the emotional range only goes from A (the self-involved love of the alienated teen) to B (the braggadocio of the partying teen).* There’s certainly nothing wrong with that, but it’s clear to me that Pet Sounds was absolutely as far as they could go, emotionally. There were no more untapped reserves.

Of course, if Pet Sounds is the absolute best you can do, well, you get no complaints from me. But there are still 15 artists left I haven’t voted for…and every one of them had more in their bag of tricks than the Beach Boys did. Still, I give them credit for making the most out of what they had; not many artists do that.


* I’m not just talking about the lyrics; the songwriting and instrumentation on everything from “Surfin’ USA” to “God Only Knows” brilliantly reinforces the tone of the song—that’s the genius of the Beach Boys.

Schleuse - love that Samuel Johnson quote.

Henrik - Thanks. I didn't include Sly in the Marvin discussion because, as distinctive as his voice is, he never seemed primarily a vocalist to me. In fact I hesitated bringing up James Brown for somewhat of the same reason. I always have thought of the holy trinity of funk (the father - JB; the son - Sly; the funky spirit - George Clinton) as separate from the great soul singers. But one can just as easily say that the Atlantic and Stax R 'n B singers were doing entirely different things than the Motown singers.

This tension between drawing fine distinctions between artists and making connections between them and then trying to rank them on top of it can be confusing work.

1. The Beatles
2. Radiohead
3. Talking Heads

New

4. Stevie Wonder -I love Innervisions, Fulfillingness'..., and Songs in the Key of..., Talking Book not quite as much. He's a virtuoso, no doubt, but maybe that's what slightly distracts me and prevents his music from reaching the spiritual heights where Marvin's so easily drifts.

5. Velvet Underground - Yes, hugely influential (though I think responsible for as many bad things as good, but isn't that always the case?), progenitors of noise/art/punk and all things cool, but it wasn't all just style. I think people tend to forget that Reed and Cale were brilliant songwriters, as their solo careers would verify. In fact, and apropos of schleuse's thread, (and here comes the heresy) I would take a trio of Lou's albums - Transformer, The Blue Mask and New York - OR a trio of Cale's - Vintage Violence, Paris 1919 and HoboSapiens - over the VU's big 3 (I don't count White Light/White Heat cuz I think it's garbage). There, I said it. And I feel much better.

1.Talking Heads : problem with them : I like the details but not the whole
2.Pixies
3.E Costello
4. NEW Nirvana : too short a career, and with one good album (Nevermind) but great songs
5. REM

1. (5p) Marvin Gaye - Finally, things are happening. To be honest, I don't hate his music, though I might have pretended to do that. I just don't find anything to hang on to. To put it short, I'm no Gayelover.

2. (4p) The Clash - Several albums are all filler, no killer. That's not good enough.

3. (3p) Jimi Hendrix - Do you know what they say about a man with big hands? He wears large gloves. Jimi might have been part man, part octopus, and he handled that axe like a lumberjack, but his music never finds its way to my stereo.

4. (2p) Neil Young - He's been kicked in the groin, and whines about it for ever.

5. (1p) Radiohead - Crap debut, quite good second album, absolutely brilliant third and all downhill from there.

nirvana's long gone nicolas!

pixies too

1. The Who
2. The Clash
3. The Kinks
4. Led Zeppelin

5. Talking Heads (#83) - With this entry, I'm beginning to vote out bands in my personal list of top 100 artists. TH is probably the first artist that has made a record I think is underrated, namely Speaking in Tongues. It might be the most enjoyable funk-pop ever recorded. But, when I compiled my 1980 list*, I realised that "Remain in Light", with it's hypnotic rhythms, probably is their best album after all.

1. Elvis Costello
2. The Kinks
3. The Clash

4. Jimi Hendrix - For the most part, he stayed strong based on guitar mastery alone. But I barely listen to him. His music is quintiessential sixties. Revolutionary, yes, and his whole presentation must have been earth-shattering at the time. But having All Along the Watchtower pop up on oldies and classic rock stations over and over again, it begins to sound bland, especially without the sixties context to appreciate it.

5. David Bowie - A lot of talk on this forum about him covertly becoming #1 on Survivor got me thinking. I think I just naturally kept him out of the voting because of the respect I have for boundary pushing innovation. But do I identify with the few songs and albums that I've heard? Not much. Ziggy Stardust is one of those albums that is excellent but isn't very personal, and Low and Aladdin Sane have their ups and downs. The rest of the scattered songs (Space Oddity, Heroes) are gems, but he's a weaker album artist, IMO, than what I've given him credit for. I need to listen to more of him, of course.

Too bad about Sly but it was inevitable. I just listened to Stand! last night and that album never gets old.

5 points. Johnny Cash
4 points. Elvis Costello
3 points. Marvin Gaye
2 points. Stevie Wonder
1 point. The Clash- I like about 2-3 songs on every album but I've never liked a whole album. A hits collection doesn't do it for me because there are songs that I enjoy that weren't hits but I could put together my own personal 15-20 hits and that would be enough for me and I'd be happy listening to that. But, at the stage of 20 artist left that isn't enough when all of the remaining artists have at least one album I love plus singles on top.

Jonah, I know you didn’t mean to, but you pushed one of my buttons when you noted that Ziggy Stardust “isn’t very personal” (though I know you still like it).

Bowie, of course, is an extreme case of an artist who worked best when he was wearing a mask (figuratively). But that’s true of almost all the artists left on the island. And thank goodness.

I generally don’t care for “personal” albums…and in fact, I think they’re more rare than most people realize. Take a look at the top 20 AM albums (which includes Ziggy). How many of them could count as real “personal” expressions?

Let’s see…Pet Sounds, for sure, although it’s not on top just because it’s Brian baring his soul. Nevermind’s too ironic, Astral Weeks too impressionistic, Born to Run too bombastic. What’s Going On and It Takes a Nation of Millions are more political statements than personal ones. The three Beatles albums have some personal songs, but they’re variety shows (in a good way). And don’t get me started on Bob Dylan…

If your point is that Ziggy Stardust is a little emotionally cold, well, I buy that.

Repeats:
5 Points - Talking Heads
4 Points - Radiohead
3 Points - The Kinks
New: (at this point it's just getting rid of the worst of the best)
2 Points - The Beatles
1 Point - Stevie Wonder

1. Marvin Gaye
2. Prince
3. Led Zeppelin
4. Stevie Wonder - I respect the guy's creative genius but his music never caught my interest, except for a handful of songs.
5. The Clash - London Calling is good but not great (IMO) and as for the rest of their catalogue it's just OK.

As voted off by me before:

5 pts - Jimi Hendrix
4 pts - The Kinks
3 pts - The Who

Great performers, but just outside the top 15 (if I'd had the say):

2 pts - Prince

As mentioned two weeks ago, where he just won the tie break against Sly: Prince is a musical genius, whose albums and show performances were of high influence and represent what the 80's were like. Sign 'o' the Times is as a double quite long, but still my favorite Prince album.

1 pt - Marvin Gaye

It's a matter of taste and we're getting more and more into the tiny details as we approach the top 10. When it comes to (sweet) soul, Otis is more my man than Marvin. Besides some great songs, 'What's going on' is a diamond album, very nice.

Henrik, I concur about Speaking in Tongues being underrated. It's by far my favorite Heads album, surprising no one I'm sure.

It has the best singles but as an album Speaking in Tongues is not the best.

I like the entire record! "Pull Up the Roots" is nearly my favorite. Truth be told, however, my knowledge of their catalogue isn't as extensive as I'd like it to be, and I still wonder if I prefer Tom Tom Club.

a Fear Of Music
b Speaking In Tongues

my island package...

Holdovers
1) The Kinks - They really don't got me.
2) Johnny Cash - A 10-song best of original material is all you need.
3) David Bowie - He really did release too much crap.
4) Elvis Costello - Armed Forces and This Year's Model are great, and he released a number of other very good albums. However, compared to other artists left, he's diluted his importance by releasing a number of mediocre albums. If he'd stopped making albums when the '80s ended, he wouldn't be on my list yet.
5) Neil Young - He's been a little more consistant than Costello, but a lot of what I said about him applies to Young. It was a toss up between Young and Marvin Gaye, but the power of Gaye's singles won me over.

Bubbling - Marvin Gaye, and, well I really don't know at this point.

Because I didn't make it clear, only the top three were holdovers

Here are my explanations from the past few weeks:

Week 20
5 – Pixies – Honestly, I only know “Monkey Gone to Heaven,” but I do like it. I would like to get into more of their music, and the fact that they do rank decently high in this competition motivates me even more.
4 – Elvis Costello – Also, a case of knowing only one song: “Alison.”I love this song, because I once dated a girl named Allison who felt like the world hated her, and didn’t trust me. I used to sing this song to myself a lot. I am also familiar with his collaborations with Paul McCartney on his Flowers in the Dirt[/i] album, which I like. I would love to get into more of Costello’s music.
3 – Otis Redding – I don’t know many of his songs, but I absolutely love “Sittin’ on the Dock of the Bay.” “Try a Little Tenderness” is also golden, and “I’ve Been Loving You Too Long” is also great. Wow. The more I listen to him to give him to critique him, the more I want to listen to him!
2 – Talking Heads – Another group I would love to get into more of. “Once in a Lifetime” is one of my all-time favourite songs, and “Psycho Killer” is also awesome. I just don’t know enough of their music.
1 – Sly and the Family Stone – I absolutely love the songs I know (“Everyday People,” “Hot Fun in the Summertime,” “Stand!,” “Family Affair” , some that I’m sick of (“Dance to the Music,” etc.), but overall, I would love to get into their music more.

Week 21
5 - Elvis Costello
4 - Otis Redding
3 - Talking Heads
2 - Sly and the Family Stone
1 - Marvin Gaye – I would love to get into more of his music, but he has a lot of amazing stuff (“What’s Going On,” “Mercy Mercy Me,” “Sexual Healing,” “Let’s Get It On,” etc.), and other songs that I appreciate despite being sick of hearing them a million times (“I Heard It Through the Grapevine,” “Ain’t No Mountain High Enough”

and my votes for this week:

Week 22
5 – Elvis Costello
4 – Talking Heads
3 – Marvin Gaye
2 – Prince – I really like “When Doves Cry,” “1999,” “Let’s Go Crazy,” “Little Red Corvette,” “Purple Rain,” “Musicology,” and others, but I would like to get into more of his music.
1 – The Clash – I really enjoy their music…I’ve listened to “The Essential Clash,” and it is quite awesome. My favourite of theirs would have to be “White Mann in Hammersmith Palais,” followed by “Rock the Casbah,” and “Should I Stay or Should I Go.”

maybe it's just me, but i don't think i could vote for an artist if i'd only heard 1 song, or even 1 album.

not to sound like a dick or to turn this into a SERIOUS game, but maybe sit this one out and catch up on some listening if that's the case?

I have to agree with Greg. I think it somewhat defeats the purpose of the game to make uninformed criticism. If you haven't at least listened to This Year's Model by Elvis Costello or London Calling by the Clash, you're really just depriving yourself (yeah, I know that's a cliche thing to say).

Personally, by trying to acquaint myself more with the artists in this game I discovered Hank Williams and Curtis Mayfield's genius.

And we shouldn't let people vote for President until they are familiar with the party platforms.

I respectfully disagree with Greg and Slush. I'm personally happy to have anyone participate. We all do not and cannot have the same level of musical knowledge, particularly since many people who come onto the forum are relatively young. If coming onto the site, playing in Survivor, and thinking about how much they do know Elvis Costello or Marvin Gaye gets them to explore their works more, it's all worth it. We can't all know everything about all of these artists. At some point, all of us must have voted basd upon a limited knowledge of a given artists' work. For some of us, that means not having heard some of the less acclaimed albums. For others of us, that means not having heard any songs beyond the hits. Now maybe only knowing "Alison" is pushing matters, but, again, if Daniel's participation inspires him to give a listen to more Costello, then it's all good.

Plus, if Costello were any good, everyone would have heard more than one of his songs. You don't see The Beatles getting voted out based on unfamiliarity.

The fact is that EC's music has not stayed all that popular thirty years after it was made. It may not be as timeless as other stuff on the island.

If you don't like an artist's sound,it doesn't matter how many songs you listen to of theirs. I've only heard a couple of James Blunt songs but it doesn't matter if I've heard one or 50 - he sucks,he's got a crap voice. People hate the sound of Bob Dylan's voice no matter the song. If you can't stand an artist,then you won't have heard much of their stuff. It's like Moonbeam with The Beatles - I thought I heard him say he hated every single song he'd heard by them - just can't stand them

gotta disagree, midaso. some of my favorite artists are groups that, upon first listen, offended my ears. whether it's an encounter with an unusual voice (ian curtis, morrissey, kate bush), lack of familiarity with a genre (robert johnson sounds like all the other blues guys!), or a seemingly discordant sound (the first time i heard loveless i thought the tape was warped), some music requires, and deserves, an "effort." some will reveal itself to you and some won't (james blunt).

It seems ridiculous on its face that Talking Heads lasted longer than Miles Davis, but I suppose it's a genre thing. Ahem.

5 pts: Talking Heads (holdover)
4 pts: The Clash (holdover)
3 pts: R.E.M. (holdover)
2 pts: The Kinks - I love many Kinks songs and several albums, but I'm not apt to play them that often; I need to be in a particularly Britishy mood to have the inclination to throw them on. Certainly a magnificent group, but they are all pretty great at this point.
1 pt: Led Zeppelin (holdover)

sonofsamiam, 4 of our 5 picks are the same.

Who did you forget?

In keeping with my good nature, I agree with both Midaso and Greg.

Yeah, there are some artists you have to grow into (for me: Neil Young, Sonic Youth, and several sixties bands before I outgrew being a post-‘77 fundamentalist). And, Greg, as you note with Robert Johnson, it takes an effort of imagination to appreciate older stuff (but it is worth it).

But the default for the kind of music we’re talking about here is that it’s pop, and it’s made for teenagers. I welcome the perspective of the younger voters Survivor’s been getting recently; it makes a nice balance to the opinions of old farts like me. It’s interesting to see how someone born after 1990 (good lord) approaches Costello or the Stones or the Clash.

Part of the definition of pop music is that it’s supposed to be immediately appealing. There are good reasons, of course, for artists to make music that requires more active listening, but I think we have to remember that that’s deviation from the norm.

Since Miles Davis is gone I will add Neil Young


1. Bob Dylan
2. The Velvet Underground
3. The Beach Boys
4. Led Zeppelin
5. Neil Young

Yes, OK, Reuben, buy why Neil Young? Explain, please...

Same votes as last week. I get the feeling that this will be the case for quite some time.

1. The Who
2. The Beatles
3. Bob Dylan
4. Johnny Cash
5. Led Zeppelin

sonofsamiam, 4 of our 5 picks are the same.

Who did you forget?

I'll always be a Who fan Henrik! Along with The Beatles, they were the first band I loved outside of the Top 40 of the time. Some of the love may be nostalgia at this point, but then again, they rocked quite well when they were on.

The same for me also this week.

1. Velvet Underground
2. Neil Young
3. Bob Dylan
4. Radiohead
5. The Beach Boys

schleuse, SMiLe was pretty untapped. And "Til I Die" outdoes Radiohead in nihilism! How's that for emotional variety.

1. Led Zeppelin

Posturing debilitates flashes of greatness round-the-clock. They had the tools (videlicet musical ear, passion, inspired unoriginality) and turned them all upside down.

2. The Kinks

Antithesis of kinkiness; that could be good, but they really went too far into harmless territory. Just check: a name like Magic Mystery Tour sounds far more formidable than something like The Village Green Preservation Society. If only they'd have merged the no-nonsense of "You Really Got Me" with the beauty of "Waterloo Sunset", we could have had a really great band, but instead we must endure their adorable children's music.

3. Radiohead

I prefer my imaginary Radiohead, who are quite good. The real ones are alright too, but they descend into self-parody too often, and their little big cult doesn't help.

4. Johnny Cash

A good cover artist (not many of those, are there?) who had some great songs in his more youthful days. And he was both fun and funny. I wish Hank Williams was here instead of him, still and all.

5. David Bowie

Too many of his moments are profligately ridiculous for me. I prefer him when he's merely fantastic.

This my favorite Kinks song:

Ooh favorite Kinks song? Easy. That's a good one though.

My personal favorite:

Awesome track, Paul.

That's from the album (Listen to the) Flower People, isn't it?

Oh, but this one is surely their best:

Actually sleuse, my pick was a single released in 1965 when the group was still known as The Thamesmen (pronounced Tems-men).

I mean "schleuse."

Here is more info: Cups & Cakes article

If Cups and Cakes wasn't enough, they really beat the tea and cakes theme to death with this one....

I lose!

What?! An entire article on the Thamesmen and no mention of Stumpy Pepys (one of only two drummers in the history of rock to die in a gardening accident)?

That is a shocking oversight.

Isn't that (drummers who died in strange ways) a Spinal Tap joke? Are you joking here or could these garden accidents be the true story that "lies behind" the Spinal Tap joke?

Don't joke with me now...

OK, I'll tell the truth--John "Stumpy" Pepys (played by Ed Begley Jr., iirc) was a fictional character in This Is Spinal Tap (1984); he was the drummer for the Thamesmen, the skiffle band that eventually became Tap (you can see him in the movie in the video for "Gimme Some Money"). In the movie, we learn that he died in an unexplained freak gardening accident.

HOWEVER...in a bizarre case of life imitating art, Jeff Porcaro, the drummer for Toto, died in a freak gardening accident in 1992. (checks Wikipedia...) He had a heart attack due to a severe allergic reaction to pesticides he was using in his garden.

It was one of those cases the police said best left unsolved.

Enjoying the Spinal Tap/Kinks/Pretenders connections, but I'm going to have to repectfully take issue with Mismaiome's assessment of the Kinks. (And I truly hope this is not taken as an attack, and more of a conversation.)

First - the name. It's funny because I was just recently listening to an interview with Ray Davies where he talked about the name. He said that he somewhat regrets the name, but has come to think that it refers to something different than sexual kinkiness, but rather the people and things that are somewhat out of step with the rest of the world -- the "kinks" in the fabric of society. And for most of their discography that has been a focus. They don't sing from the persepctive of the beautiful Terrence Stamp and Julie Christie, but rather that of the guy content (or is he?) to stay in his house on Friday nights. They don't sing from the perspective of David Watts, but from the perspective of the boy who wants to be him.

Now I'm not saying that the Kinks overall are greater than the Beatles, but Ray Davies' songs of this ilk feel much more naturally sympathetic, whereas songs like "Eleanor Rigby" and "The Fool on the Hill" and (a song I happen to love) "She's Leaving Home" feel more removed -- empathetic but less lived in.

Which brings me to _Village Green Preservation Society_. Recorded just after the height of _Magical Mystery Tour_ psychedelic social upheaval, it is not simply a reactionary paean to simple, homespun, little Britain pleasures. The nostalgia is bright but underneath the surface it is bittersweet and oftentimes mocking and self-mocking (and that is perhaps more pronounced on songs on other albums like "Victoria," "Autumn Almanac," and Stephan's fave "Celluloid Heroes").

It is the more social commentary and character study songs where, I believe, the Kinks did merge the beauty of "Waterloo Sunset" with the bite of their earlier hits: "Get Back In the Line," "David Watts," "Sunny Afternoon," "Lola," "Did You See His Name?"

No doubt, the Kinks edge toward the fey very often (to use an adjective I tentatively levelled at "Odessey and Oracle"). And to that extent, the Thamesman's "Cups and Cakes" is a fair rejoinder.

But that element is always cut with something darker... almost always lyrically and perhaps not often enough musically. That is why I adore "Shangri-La" so much. The beauty builds, even as the lyrics get progressively more troubling, until they reach the hard-charging bridge - punctuated by the line "Too scared to think about how insecure you are/Life ain't so happy in your little shangri-la."

Don't get me wrong. I'm very pleased that the Kinks made it this far in the game. But they have never struck me as "children's music." (Although, I am putting "Picture Book" on a party favor mix for my daughters' 4th birthday, so maybe I'm wrong.)

Schwah: ditto. well said.

Here is that Ray Davies interview: Fresh Air - Ray Davies.

It's very good.

I agree with all of that, Schwah. However, I feel that their songs are much like children's books with social commentary - the inside of the matter is partly lost on the kids, and they appreciate the coating more. But regardless, they read like children's books to most "sane" adults.

Take a book like "The Little Prince" for example.

mismaione - Thanks for the explanation. I understand now your more benign use of the term "children" and agree with you. Davies efficiently and quickly establishes character and story, so he shars that also with children's stories.

mismaiome, What song do you think is the best example of the kinks "children's book" style? I'm not trying to be a smartass, I just don't quite get it.

3 bands that I actually had below the Beatles got voted off...yay

My votes:

5 points: Led Zeppelin

4 points: Jimi Hendrix

3 points: Prince

2 points: Neil Young - Neil actually bumped up a few points this week, but it wasn't enough to bump over JC. I've reached a point where I'm familiar with a large portion of everybody's catalog (actually, other than Otis Redding I reached that point awhile ago), so there's just a larger gap between the artists...typically.

1 points: Johnny Cash - Prince was the first person I voted for with one song in my Top 1000 and Johnny Cash is the first with two songs in my Top 1000 which are "Folsom Prison Blues" (duh!) and "I Hung My Head" from America IV. I've always respected the Folsom Prison album, but I just don't listen to it a whole lot. Also, all the American Recordings albums have their fair share of missteps, but every one produces a few good songs, so I'm glad he made them.

1)Talking Heads:C'mon this is getting ridiculous now
2)Led Zeppelin:Overblown
3)Marvin Gaye:Too little material that I'm a big fan of
4)Johnny Cash:I'm surprised I hadn't voted for him earlier - his style doesn't generally do too much for me
5)REM:It was a tossup between them and the Beatles - went for REM first because,glib as many of the Beatles' songs may be,at least you can hear and understand the lyrics

5 Gaye
4 Cash
3 Talking Heads
5 Hendrix

(New)
1 Costello Good, sometimes great but not in the company of the A-listers left still.

5 points - Marvin Gaye - Like em, just not more then the others

4 Points - Never cared for him at all, but I do like those of which he has influenced

3 POints - Stevie wonder - Like em, dont love em

2 Points - Jimi Hendrix - Like em. Just didnt live long enough

1 POint - elvis Costello - Like him a fair bit, but Im gunna guess he's in the bottom 3 this week, so I'll give him the push.

Gotta save radiohead somehow.

So who's getting 4 points?

Long time I have not voted here !

5 points - The Talking Heads
Well, I only know Remain In Light and the songs which were in the top 200, but if they are supposed to be the greatest achievement of this band, I don't see how they can have their place in that top 20
4 points - Elvis Costello
Same thing, I only know the albums which were on the top 100 albums... nice to listen, but not great enough to make me remember even one song
3 points - Marvin Gaye
No real reasons, just that I like him less than the 17 other artists !
2 points - Johnny Cash
Great artist for sure, but too americana for european listeners maybe
1 point - Prince
We want the funk, give us the funk ! And who could do it better than Prince ? But even though I love many of his songs, I don't like any of his albums as a whole (furthermore red little corvette is one of the most overrated song on the AM3000 for me... after once in a lifetime maybe !)

Long survive Radiohead !