So long, farewell, auf wiedersehen, goodbye:

42. Hank Williams (29)
41. Al Green (24)
40. Lou Reed (22)
39. Simon and Garfunkel (21)

Low-hanging fruit: Ray Charles (20), Nick Drake (17), Pink Floyd (17), PJ Harvey (16), Tom Waits (14), Bob Marley and the Wailers (14).

The 38 artists left are:

The Beach Boys, The Beatles, Beck, David Bowie, James Brown, Johnny Cash, Ray Charles, The Clash, Elvis Costello, Miles Davis, Nick Drake, Bob Dylan, Aretha Franklin, Marvin Gaye, Jimi Hendrix, The Kinks, Led Zeppelin, Bob Marley and the Wailers, Curtis Mayfield, Nirvana, Pink Floyd, Pixies, Elvis Presley, Prince, Radiohead, Otis Redding, R.E.M., The Rolling Stones, Simon and Garfunkel, Sly and the Family Stone, Sonic Youth, Bruce Springsteen, Talking Heads, The Velvet Underground, Tom Waits, The Who, Stevie Wonder, Neil Young.

As planned, in Week 16, we’re going to start slowing it down. For the next four or five weeks, only three artists will be eliminated each week (barring weird ties, of course). After all, we’re starting to get to artists almost everyone likes, and we should probably take our deliberate time over it…

Let’s see whatcha got.

5 points Sonic Youth
4 Springsteen

as before

3 Ray Charles
2 Aretha Franklin

With both of these artists there's no denying they had a unique impact on popular music, However I don't care for any of Aretha's work beyond about 1971 and am not a massive fan of most of her albums anyway. Nearly every other artist left either had a much longer period of greatness or a burned much brighter for a shorter time. With Charles I'd much rather listen to what he influenced than his output, aside from ten or so songs.

1 Tom Waits

and as for Tom Waits, never been a fan of all bar three of his albums (Raindogs, Mule Variations and Swordfishtrombones) The rest I can leave and tom waits for no man.

Old:
1) Beck
2) Nirvana
3) PJ Harvey
4) Sonic Youth

New:
5) I listened to a few more Pixies tracks, and I think they shouldn't go just yet. That's why my new nomination is: Jimi Hendrix. Yes. I can appreciate what he's done for music, but I don't care for any of his songs save for the Dylan cover. I was going to vote him off before PJ, Sonic Youth and a few others, but I listened to "Are You Experienced" and "Electric Ladyland" and decided he could stay for a little longer. Right now though, I pretty much like every artist remaining except for the ones on my list and Radiohead (sorry Anthony, next week Yorke might be getting his first points) so Jimi Hendrix, however influential, has to go.

WHOOPS! I goofed on the list of the remaining 38 artists: PJ Harvey should be on the list, Simon and Garfunkel should not be!

Here's the correct lineup:

The Beach Boys, The Beatles, Beck, David Bowie, James Brown, Johnny Cash, Ray Charles, The Clash, Elvis Costello, Miles Davis, Nick Drake, Bob Dylan, Aretha Franklin, Marvin Gaye, PJ Harvey, Jimi Hendrix, The Kinks, Led Zeppelin, Bob Marley and the Wailers, Curtis Mayfield, Nirvana, Pink Floyd, Pixies, Elvis Presley, Prince, Radiohead, Otis Redding, R.E.M., The Rolling Stones, Sly and the Family Stone, Sonic Youth, Bruce Springsteen, Talking Heads, The Velvet Underground, Tom Waits, The Who, Stevie Wonder, Neil Young.

Sorry bout dat.

1. PINK FLOYD
2. TOM WAITS
3. NICK DRAKE
4. BECK. Beck, Björk. Björk, Beck. Mr. B has a very similar career trajectory to that of Ms. B (and at almost the exact same time)—early experimentalist masterpieces followed by a long, slow slide into plain hash. But Beck started out even better, with “Loser” and Odelay. I’ll take the folk-surfer dude over the faerie.

And, at long last…

5. LED ZEPPELIN. Geez, where do I start? Led Zep needs to leave the island for so many reasons. Let’s start with this list…more as I think of them in the coming weeks…

• The voice of Robert Plant. Yes, rock, like its granddaddy, the blues, is more about feel than virtuoso performance. But blues singers expressed the heartache that goes with poverty and segregation. 50s rock singers expressed the heartfelt longing of the adolescent; 60s rock singers expressed the conflicting emotions of changing times. Plant just expresses: “I’m a goofy, horny white guy.”
• They did not introduce, but they did popularize, rock iconography straight out of Tolkien and the Mabinogion. This by itself would actually be sufficient to kick them out.
• Jimmy Page is a hell of a musician, but the cult that has grown up around him (and Hendrix) worships pyrotechnics.
• As a buddy of mine, a Zeppelin fan who saw them 30 years ago, said, “in concert, they’re PERFECT.” Well, perfection is…how can I put this?...so not the point of rock and roll.
• Too many woodwinds, not enough brass.
• I don’t mind if you pinch blues songs, more or less whole, and perform them with some flourishes (Clapton made a career doing that), and I don’t even mind if you do it without acknowledging the source. But if someone calls you on it, and you deny it, well, that’s dirty pool.
• The Yardbirds were better.

I guess that’ll do to start with.

Same 5 as last week

PJ Harvey 5
Talking Heads 4
Pixies 3
E Costello 2
A Franklin 1

Another rule for me in this game, and it’s getting to the point where it might be one of the only rules, is that I will strongly favor an artist where you can’t say, “This sounds like early [blank], or a combination of [blank] and [blank]”, where the blanks are other musicians. I think what remains of this list are almost the core group of musicians that are used to describe newer music, and even if I don’t have many albums of some of these artists, I’ve got to respect that. So I’ll always be thinking about remaining artists that sound a little too much like someone else.

First the last week’s votes:

1. Bob Marley and the Wailers
2. Elvis Costello
3. Otis Redding

And now…

4. Curtis Mayfield – Another R+B giant has to go, because I haven’t gone into his catalog very deep. Pusherman was one of my first iTunes purchases but I have none of his albums. His high voice rising over all of the thick grooves add a mournful tone to the funk, but Marvin Gaye also has the same effect.

5. Stevie Wonder – I know that he is in a class by himself, but I don’t have any albums of his, and the songs that became hits are quite sugary, albeit very musical. I think exploring Stevie Wonder will be like Prince, in that as a true renaissance musician, I might find more gems in the more adventurous non-single material.

1. Beatles
2. Pixies
3. Nick Drake

New

4. Nirvana - Angst, alienation, self-pity, boredom - the hallmarks of Generation X. Nirvana was the perfect symbol of the Zeitgeist (although I'd argue that Corgan had much more interesting things to say about the subject, and Billie Joe's articulation of these values/afflictions gave the whole thing a much-needed levity). As I think Rocky pointed out, Nevermind signals the point when any facile distinction between the mainstream and the alternative (underground) became officially impossible. This, in retrospect, might have been their greatest contribution to music.

5. Radiohead - I love the Bends/OK Computer diptych - between the two there's a good handful of beautiful, atmospheric pop songs and lots of unique craftsmanship. Since, I feel they've become increasingly self-important (image, packaging, release-gimmicks, multiple song titles), self-parodic (Yorke as prophet of existential paranoia) and self-consciously experimental, producing results that were often stunning but just as often disastrous (reaching a real nadir w/ Amnesiac). I blame the excitable music press for at least some of this.

Same again.

1. The Who
2. The Clash
3. Ray Charles
4. Otis Redding
5. The Kinks

1. Aretha Franklin
2. PJ Harvey
3. Radiohead
4. Nick Drake
5. Curtis Mayfield

Greg

Sometimes you just feel something deep but can't find the proper words (especially foreign words) to express it.
That was the case of me vs Radiohead till you just summed it up so well.

1. (5p) Bob Marley and the Wailers - This week I'm not going to say I dislike the whole reggae genre. Because I don't. I like the odd novelty reggae cover song, like Blood Sisters' Ring My Bell. But Bob Marley isn't my man.

2. (4p) Marvin Gaye - I'm fighting a hopeless battle here, but I'll stand by my case. Marvin Gaye is hopelessly overrated.

3. (3p) Pink Floyd - The early stuff is great, but Pink Floyd soon developed into a boring, instrument masturbating band, and I hate bands like that.

4. (2p) Ray Charles - It wouldn't mind me if he had to leave, but the piano bar would might be short of one attraction. I'd be at the pub, so I really wouldn't notice.

5. (1p) Sly and the Family Stone - Of the bands left on the island they are the one I know least about. I don't really have anything against them, except that they've never interested me at all.

1. Sonic Youth
2. Prince
3. Nick Drake
4. PJ Harvey
5. Elvis Presley - I've been holding off the swirly-haired wonder for too long. Getting rid of U2 before him is downright shameful. He never wrote a word or note of the song's that built his career, he was one of the least impressive individuals to ever hold a microphone and his entire catalogue sounds cheap and dated. He was the Justin Timberlake of his time.

1. Beck (5 points)

I've never once been able to listen to Beck for pleasure. It was always just the curiosity.

2. Ray Charles (4 points)

Thought about it some more, and realized that Ray is actually the most straightforward (and dullest) soul singer in here.

3. Aretha Franklin (3 points)

Great singer, mostly great backing bands, mostly background music.

4. Otis Redding (2 points)

Tough choice between him and Aretha for the 3nd spot, but I figured that, ultimately, his work was more fascinating - and deep in spite of itself.

5. Curtis Mayfield (1 points)

I love his style, but he had one niche that he stayed in.

Oh, and actually, Timberlake works on the writing and production of his songs - means your analogy isn't the best.

1. TALKING HEADS
2. SONIC YOUTH

3. ELVIS PRESLEY

First off, thanks to Schwah for leading the brigade here. And with my fellow countryman jonmarck on board, I’m ready to go into battle.

Elvis’ place in rock history is a topic that we’ve pretty much beaten to death around here. It seems that we’re all in agreement when it comes to his cultural significance, and to a lesser extent, we can agree that his artistic input into his music was a far cry from remarkable (in terms of actual songwriting). But it appears this forum is in completely polarized when the conversation turns to Presley’s merits as a true musical phenomenon, and along those lines, his contemporary popularity.

While I think Elvis’ gift for performance was more innate than his talent as a singer, he possessed that larger-than-life star quality that enabled him to captivate audiences, much in the same way that Michael Jackson did in the ‘80s (and Britney Spears in the late ‘90s). My problem with this though, is that if American Idol has taught us anything, it’s that these larger-than-personas are not as rare as we’d like to think they are. And looking through the lens of the past 50 years, it’s difficult to give more credit to Elvis than he actually deserves. He was a pretty face; a commodity that was dressed up in such a way as to increase his appeal. To that end, he was a musical conduit, and as a musician, I’ve never been impressed by anyone who is merely a glossy package for someone else’s creativity.

Regarding his legacy, I’m no RIAA lackey, but I know that his music continues to sell (regardless of how it’s packaged), and will continue to sell. I will posit, however, that his stock will decline faster than that of the Beatles, simply because I think that with time, younger people who are discovering music will find more appeal in experimentation rather than performance. Besides, no aspiring guitarist is going to pick up an Elvis record to play along with.

4. THE VELVET UNDERGROUND

It’s Monday morning, and the wind’s just right for some heresy. So, here it goes:

I can’t stand the VU.

I’ve never been impressed by their urban and cynical stripped-down drone (which, btw, is loud and repetitive – also a big turnoff). I’m not convinced that Lou Reed was any great singer or musician; maybe a knack for avant-garde songwriting, but that’s about as much as I’m willing to give him. They were an overrated band made up of mediocre musicians who crafted painful melodies along with pretentious lyrics. Overall, it adds up to something that I’ve not only never been able to grasp onto, but something that I completely fail to see the appeal of.

5. SLY AND THE FAMILY STONE

Nothing against them really. I hate to be one of those “never been a fan of [insert genre here]” people, but funk does nothing for me. Never has.

What Velvet Underground drone? Huh? What album are you talking about?

VU & Nico and White Light/White Heat I guess(which are both great BTW)

"Besides, no aspiring musician is going to pick up an Elvis record to play along with."

It's true and it's a shame.

regarding the VU, that's a lot of dislike for a group you haven't voted for until now

Greg – that’s a fair observation.

Yeah, I could’ve voted for them from the beginning of the game, but it wouldn’t have done any good. I’m well aware of their importance (critically, and on this forum), and a vote for them earlier would’ve only made me look like an uninformed knob who thinks 100 other artists/groups (incl. Metallica, Guns N’ Roses, Pet Shop Boys, etc.) are better. I’m smarter than that.

Oh, and your Radiohead comments are wicked awesome!

1. Marvin Gaye - What's Going On doesn't do it for me and neither does the rest. That sexual healing song is really quite annoying.
2. Prince
3. Ray Charles
4. Beck
5. Curtis Mayfield

Returners:

1. Tom Waits
2. Nick Drake
3. Pink Floyd
4. Elvis Presley

New:

5. Aretha Franklin -- A powerhouse voice, to be sure. And often used in big, beautiful way. But... Why do I find myself enjoying her background singers more on many of her biggest hits? Why does she levae me cold so often, even when at her most soulful? Why did "Freeway of Love" suck so badly? I do not know the answers to these questions.

On a side note, as a big fan of many male soul singers, I'm trying to work through why so many of the female soul singers don't do it for me. Is it misogyny? I like to think not, since I adore so many female jazz singers. I keep waiting to hear that one female soul singer who will blow me away, and don't feel like I've heard her yet.

psst, Schwah. check your email.

What does Etta James sing?

Anthony's position on VU is pretty much the same as mine on LZ. To vote for them before this would have begged a really big question--and Anthony, you're taking a braver stand than I am, because the Velvets are a much more of a critical darling than Zeppelin.

You're still wrong, though.

Wrong about what exactly?

5 points. Tom Waits
4 points. Johnny Cash
3 points. Bruce Springsteen
2 points. Sonic Youth- I actually like the Murray St. sound better than all of the albums they are acclaimed for.
1 point. Aretha Franklin- Great voice, but I just can't get into the songs at all. It's no wonder why she is always covered on American Idol because I think that's the crowd that Aretha appeals to. Musicheads can appreciate the talent but are turned away by the lack of substance. There just isn't much that's interesting about her music other than an amazing voice and that only stretches so far.

Anthony, try "Pale Blue Eyes" by the VU. Very good songwriting, not overly loud at all. Also, Sly & The Family Stone is pretty much just as much pop/rock as it is funk.

Yeah, I don't think Sly is really funk. It's more soul than funk. Or rather, they influenced soul, funk and R&B but never really sounded like any of them. It's just amazing pop music.

5 pts Pink Floyd - (repeat)

4 pts Nirvana - (repeat)

3 pts Beck - (repeat)

2 pts Ray Charles - Certainly one of the great soul singers and he's got a bunch of great songs, but I rarely go out of my way to actively listen to him.

1 pt The Clash - If it's fair play to attack Zep for being white boys aping the blues, then why not The Clash for being white boys aping reggae? Plus, I don't think I could possibly make it more than 3 straight tracks through one of their albums these days.

I think a lot of 70's and 80's R&B/soul/funk/pop can be traced to Sly and the Family Stone and Stevie Wonder.

I think a lot of 70's and 80's R&B/soul/funk/pop can be traced to Sly and the Family Stone and Stevie Wonder.

Not to mention Motown, Stax, James Brown, and even girl groups.

Sly, Stevie, Curtis Mayfield, and to a degree The Temptations pretty much started the trend toward albums rather than singles, though, with Marvin Gaye putting things over the edge with What's Going On.

Anthony, I'm surprised by your VU opinion. (Not in a bad or good way, just surprised). I am a bit out of the mainstream on VU too, because I like their poppier stuff a lot better than the arty stuff that gets most of the attention here and from critics.

If all they did were songs like Heroin, etc., I'd be right there with you, but I really like Stephanie Says, Train Comin' Round the Bend, There She Goes Again, Rock And Roll, Sweet Jane, Lisa Says...

I wonder if you have heard the "VU" album of outtakes released in 1985. It's the album that first got me into the band and it has a different, more fun, feel than the more pretentious stuff.

Another great thing about the band is how utterly different they were from the rest of the music scene at the time they were releasing their records.

Thanks for the VU recommendations, guys. Definitely appreciated.

Anthony, your VU rant reminds me of my feelings about The Beatles! I guess it goes to show that nothing is sacred, especially in this game!

So true, Moonbeam.

Like someone said before, this would be a boring place if everyone agreed.

(P.S. Nice pics, btw. Since you decided to show off your arm-candy, I decided to follow your lead. )

Wow, I've been quoted twice in this thread already. I helped knock two artists out and have two on the bubble. I guess that's to be expected the later we get in this game.


1) Ray Charles - It's a personal thing, I never could get into him. He also took up the most space on "We Are the World."
2) Nick Drake - We're starting to get down to great artists, and he's not one of them.
3) Curtis Mayfield - He might be "super," and he's certainly "fly," but I don't think he's "Superfly."
4) James Brown - He's got some from-the-gut funk and has been fairly influential, but he really wasn't consistent or diverse enough.
5) Tom Waits - I like ol' Tom, and he's had a pretty consistent career. He's just not as good as everyone else who's left.

Bubbling: Miles Davis, the Pixies and the Kinks

then why not The Clash for being white boys aping reggae?

As far as I'm concerned, it's because London Calling (the album) is such a masterpiece of pure pop. (I can't even hear the rough edges anymore.)

I actually helped to eliminate two artists! Go me!

We're down to the point where I actively dislike 9 artists remaining, have neutral/mixed feelings for 19 more, and actively enjoy 10.

This week's targets:

1. Bob Marley and the Wailers- How they keep surviving is a miracle to me.
2. Pink Floyd
3. The Who
4. Aretha Franklin
5. Elvis Presley- I know he is massively important and influential, but I simply don't like any of his songs that I've heard.

Random shots:

Anthony, you're just wrong in general about VU--I didn't have anything more specific in mind. They're more-influential-than-good, but they're plenty of both. They're also about a million times cooler than any of their contemporaries. Yes, including Hendrix. (And, while we're making recommendations: "Sweet Jane" and "Perfect Day.")

Rocky, was I quoting you when I called Plant a goofy horny white guy? I realized later that I was probably ripping someone off--if so, I apologize for not giving you the credit.

And the Clash aping reggae is OK because they're not embarrassing reggae in the process. Most reggae artists seemed to enjoy their renaissance in the UK in 1978-79. On the other hand...I don't know, but I imagine Muddy Waters rolled his eyes and burst out laughing the first time he heard Robert Plant.

"Perfect Day" is a solo Lou song from Transformer.

But yeah, "Sweet Jane" is an awesome song. Especially the full-length version.

As for Bob Marley, I don't see why he's not liked. There's a unique beauty to his songs that I haven't found anywhere else.

I don't think Robert Plant is meant to be taken seriously. Heck, I don't even think Muddy Waters is meant to be taken seriously.

I don´t see making any changes his week since PJ is quite a bit ahead of Bob Marley on my little list.

5 points: Ray Charles - Repeat, does he have a chance of leaving this week. Oh gee golly I hope.

4 points: Pink Floyd - Repeat. At least the drugs will make the boat ride home more tolerable.

3 points: James Brown - Repeat.

2 points: Nirvana - Repeat.

1 point: Bob Marley and the Wailers - Repeat. I'm not sure why Bob Marley hasn't been profiled on this site yet: http://stuffwhitepeoplelike.wordpress.com/

1) Sinder Velvin : Etta James was a blues/soul singer
She had hits in the early '60s with Chess records, singing mostly ballads, but her best is on 2 wonderful albums : Etta James rocks the house (a live from 1963) and the beautiful Tell Mama (1967) recorded in Muscle Shoals. She's the anti-Aretha Franklin : less sophisticated, but with a hell of a voice

2)"Besides, no aspiring musician is going to pick up an Elvis record to play along with."
I did. I remember in the '80s learning my 3-chords on Jailhouse rock.
And you guys are absolutely formated by the post-65 era. Just because he didn't write his stuff didn't meant he wasn't creative. He was. He was the first to sing like that and to move like that. Read Marcus, although I doubt you will. I won't waste my time trying do defend Elvis.

3) i have no problem with Clash aping reggae as long as the result is ok, and it is. "guns of Brixton" is a fucking masterpiece.

4) And yes, when the Chicago bluesmen saw those British groups playing "the blues" they were puzzled.
Listen to the song "Bo Diddley" by the Animals. They describe their encounter with Bo and the Man saying "These guys are the biggest amount of rubbish I ever heard in my life". And Sonny Boy Williamson II said something funny about the Stones playing the blues, but I can't remember what

Reading over my votes and comments from weeks 10 and 11, it is quite evident that I needed this holiday very badly!

Well, the 5 artists from week 11 have all left the island, so here's 5 completely new entries for you:

#1 - 5 points: James Brown.

'Live at the Apollo' is quite okay, but has become one of my dust collectors. No album or song of him in my top 1000, so off you go.

#2 - 4 points: Curtis Mayfield.
#3 - 3 points: Miles Davis.

Mayfield and Davis are both weak black spots to me, I only know a few albums of them. 'Superfly' and 'Kind of Blue' are in my favorite 1000 albums (3.5 stars) though.

#4 - 2 points: Ray Charles.

Love hate relation. One day he's great, the next day I prefer not to listen to his music. Both 'Genius + Soul = Jazz' and 'Modern Sounds in Country and Western Music' make it to my 1000.

#5 - 1 point: Jimi Hendrix.

This is a tough one to pick, because he is one of the best live acts and one of the best guitar players, if not THE best. But with only 'Electric Ladyland' in my personal 500, he loses the battle against the other 34 remaining artists.

i have no problem with Clash aping reggae as long as the result is ok.

Neither do I, actually. It just always struck me as odd that some groups get slagged for copping stuff and others don't. Anyway, yes, London Calling is incredible (if a touch overlong), but The Clash have never blown my mind as much as everyone tells me they should.

But if you're gonna ape reggae, "(White Man) In Hammersmith Palais" is the way to go. That's great stuff. I stand by my vote though.

In sadder news, it looks like Curtis Mayfield is gonna go. So many people here clearly need to dig a little deeper; many friends of mine who love the "big sound" of bands like Radiohead, et al, ended up getting into Curtis. His early-'70s stuff in particular is absolutely amazingly arranged, and really deep sonically. And this assertion that he somehow didn't progress in his career baffles me. Yes, post-'75 or so his career began to run down, but that was after a decade of gold. And he wasn't the only soul/r&b auteur to have trouble during the emergence of disco and '80s pop.

I was afraid that Etta sings jazz.

Schwah said:

I keep waiting to hear that one female soul singer who will blow me away, and don't feel like I've heard her yet.


I wonder what his opinion of her is.

I'll admit to little knowledge of Etta aside from "At Last" (like her voice a lot, a little tired of the song). I'd like to get to know her work better.

I'll also say that, like most of my votes on Survivor, I have played up my problems with Aretha to better justify my vote. There is absolutely no doubt that hers is a monumental voice. I simply leaves me colder than a number of other soul artists, for reasons I have not yet figured out.

Oh oh oh. What about Nina Simone?

1 Pink Floyd
2 Bruce Springsteen
3 The Clash
4 Bob Marley and the Wailers:ok, I used to be a student in a former life, and I sometimes used to wonder why 'student-bashing' wasn't more rife because there were so many annoying pseud ball-bags running around.
Sure, I was and am a dick myself, but my peers grated on me and my top three signifiers of a tosser were an advertised love of (in descending order) Che Guevara, Betty Blue and Bob Marley-the problem being that none of the people with posters or t-shirts of the aforementioned gave a flying fox about revolutionary politics, French cinema or reggae.
Beyond the fact that I was surrounded by cretins at university, I suppose I just see Marley as the populariser, rather than pioneer, of his genre.
5 Radiohead:'Kid A' is a great album, 'The Bends' I quite like but 'OK Computer' has become the new 'Sgt. Pepper' and I just can't see why-but then I could never see why 'Sgt. Pepper' was the old 'Sgt. Pepper'.

Wow, Pink Floyd are in serious danger. But they're way better than some other bands left there.

Maybe it's an anti-hype reaction, as with Radiohead?

"He was the first to sing like that and to move like that."

No! He wasn't! He copied the hundreds of black people who did it before him! He was just the first white pop singer to do it. How is that respectable?

I'm not huge on pre '64 stuff but I do know it. It's just too stupid for me to get into.

I'm wondering how many who are voting Pink Floyd off have heard Piper. Because that album alone should keep them around. Yeah, a lot of their stuff is garbage starting with The Wall. But, they have a lot of absolutely essential stuff starting with Piper at the Gates which is one of the greatest albums ever.

Jonmarck

Ok I forgot to say he xas the first white person to do so.
And if you find pre-1964 music "stupid", stay where you are.
I'm sick of your contempt. Never read anything nice and pleasant from you since I'm on this forum.

Elvis incorporated a lot from country music into his style. Listen to Blue Moon of Kentucky from the Sun Sessions. He was one of the first performers to meld country music and R&B. This combination of two "stupid" music styles helped create another new "stupid" style of music that eventually evolved into non-"stupid" music like the early Beatles/Stones stuff.

Thank God the Beatles/Stones came along to transform all of that stupid blues, country, and early rock music into something good.

But they probably would not have done it without "stupid" Elvis.

jonmarck, are you familiar with Robert Johnson?

Hey I'm a big fan of pre-64 blues, folk and country. You won't find me saying a thing against Hank Williams or Leadbelly. It's the early rock 'n' roll that I think is overrated; held in too high regard because it lead to better things. Don't forget, it wasn't until the Beatles ditched the straightforward rock 'n' roll and incorporated folk, psychedelic, etc. that things started happening. To me 50's rock 'n' roll was about everything I don't like in music. It was formulaic, simple, repetitive and carried by fads. I like strong songwriting, musicianship and innovation, not watering something down to make it more accessible.

Nicolas, if you don't want to hear people saying bad things about your favourite artists this probably isn't the game for you. Elvis is going to get voted out sooner or later and it will probably be for reasons you don't agree with. I had some of my favourite artists, The Band, Joni Mitchell, even Oasis, voted out early on for reasons I didn't agree with (some called The Band a one-hit-wonder! Ridiculous!) but that's just the nature of the game. If you want to read my positive comments go read bracketology.

I'm wondering how many who are voting Pink Floyd off have heard Piper. Because that album alone should keep them around. Yeah, a lot of their stuff is garbage starting with The Wall. But, they have a lot of absolutely essential stuff starting with Piper at the Gates which is one of the greatest albums ever.

Piper (and Meddle too) are excellent albums, but not enough to overcome the great bulk of the rest, especially in comparison to the titans they're currently rubbing shoulders with.

1) As I indicated in my vote, Pink Floyd loses points for me for Piper at the Gates of Dawn and other Syd Barrett-era material. Never liked it.

2) Sinder - Nina Simone I am ambivalent about. Love "My Baby Just Cares for Me." Not so hot on other stuff. Love and hate "Sinnerman" all at once. My big three for those who straddle jazz and pop are Ella Fitzgerald, Dinah Washington, and Cassandra Wilson.

Oh, that's great, jonmarck. But but. You at least like Little Richard, right? C'mon. Everyone cool likes Little Richard.

As for Pink Floyd, I think they are pretty titanic too, and at least as good as Led Zeppelin.

Schwah – I’m with ya. Piper is a bit too progressive and experimental for my tastes (case in point: "Interstellar Overdrive"). Way too much meandering and guitar noodling, if you ask me. Meddle is a bit better, but not much. Dark Side is the money shot – they discovered how to make concise prog. An oxymoron, but it’s true.

Schwah,

Nina's discography is a total mess, and it's hard to find the gems (especially since on your average Best Of compilation of hers, you only get about one quarter of them).

Have you heard the songs "Lilac Wine," "I Put a Spell on You," "Wild Is The Wind," and "Feeling Good"? They're all great.

I personally don't see what's wrong with The Wall. I think it's a fabulous album.

Well, "The Wall" is a bit too "dad's rock" in an overblown 70's way, and there isn't a single good song on the second vinyl B-side, but it's still pretty great. Some deeply tortured songs in there, if you're on the right frequency, and lots of hidden pop tricks. (Equal to Led Zeppelin's "Physical Graffiti," with just as many great songs, except somewhat less boring.)

But I still think "Wish You Were Here" is the best Floyd album. Again, you have to be on the right frequency, and then it's beautiful.

I'll be honest though. I used to listen to Led Zeppelin, and especially Pink Floyd, a whole lot back when I was 14. Pink Floyd was, in fact, my favorite band.

But now, having grown up some more, they both seem a bit too silly to me.

(Syd Barrett's Pink Floyd aside. That one is so awesome that I'm not even going to say anything about it.)

Wish You Were Here is my favourite and I love half of The Wall (but couldn't they have cut like 1 minute and let it fit on one CD?!). I've got Piper but never really liked it.

Robert Johnson's cool too.

But. But. Little Richard's cool too, isn't he?

Just listen to "Long Tall Sally" and "Good Golly Miss Molly" in a row, and pay attention to his voice!

And Buddy Holly was awesome, and definitely my fav 50's rocker, though I'm too bored of him now. (But he was definitely the blueprint for the early Beatles, and much better than them.)

C'mon, jonmarck. You have to at least like those two.

yeah, that's something I don't really like in this game
People talking about what they don't like
And I don't complain if my favorite artists leave the island. i think that for example Tom Waits is doing well, much better than I thought.
No it's just the way you say things sometimes jonmarck, like saying evrything pre 64 is stupid, and at the risk of big misunderstandings.
Anyway I love 50's rock. Chuck Berry, Elvis, Little Richard (yes Sinder Velvin "Long Tall sally" is inmy top 20), Roy orbison, Eddie Cochran, fats, Jerry Lee, Johnny Cash,Carl Perkins, Gene Vincnet and even bill Haley !
And more obscure people like Johnny Kidd, Ritchie Valens, Vince Taylor, Ray Harris, Johnny Burnette, Jerry Byrne, Bobby Day, Jet Tones
they were the heroes of the classic rockers and the first punk (Clash covered Vince Taylor, Sid Vicious sang eddie cochran)...

Nicolas, but of course you prefer Orbison's pop to his rock, right?

Of course.

Yeah I was pretty quick with that remark. It's been a busy week (Canadian Music Week (interviewing Moby on Friday!), moving to a new condo, etc.) so I dashed that one off pretty quick before going to bed. I don't think everything before '64 was stupid, just a lot of the rock 'n' rollers. I haven't heard much Little Richard but I prefer the Chess rockers (Bo Diddley, Chuck Berry) more than the others.

Have you heard the songs "Lilac Wine," "I Put a Spell on You," "Wild Is The Wind," and "Feeling Good"? They're all great.



Also check out "Mississippi Goddam", "Little Girl Blue", "To Be Young, Gifted, and Black", and her terrifying take on "Strange Fruit".

Nina may actually be in my Top 10 artists, if I were ever try to undertake such an impossible endeavor.

Piper isn't prog. It's psychedelic/garage rock at it's absolute finest. Dark Side is a great album but it's the only prog album they made that was worth a can of beans. Get the deluxe version of Piper which came out this past year and listen to the mono version and you'll realize how amazing that version of Pink Floyd was.

On the Floyd thing, I'm with Schwah and Anthony--Piper isn't an undiscovered gem for me...it's one of the reasons Pink Floyd is on my ballot. Dark Side and Wish You Were Here are the reasons they haven't appeared until now.

I don't totally disagree with calling a lot of pre-1964 rock stupid. However, I would add that a lot of post-1964 rock is also stupid, and, what's more, is stupid in ways undreamed-of in the fifties.

Rock and roll should always be in touch with stupidity. As I said in another context, it's all leather and bubblegum. If we can praise indie/lo-fi music for sounding crappy, surely we can praise the dumb fun at the core of rock.

I'd rather praise dumb fun than dismiss it, anyway. And I love fifties rock.

Well, it's nice to know we can agree on something, schleuse.

Re: the beginnings of rock, I’ve made no bones about that fact that I’m not the biggest fan of pre-album era rock music. I can definitely appreciate what it did in terms of influencing subsequent acts and laying the foundations of popular music, but like jonmarck, I just can’t get into it.

On the Floyd thing, I'm with Schwah and Anthony--Piper isn't an undiscovered gem for me...it's one of the reasons Pink Floyd is on my ballot.

I'd rather praise dumb fun than dismiss it, anyway.

What's more dumb fun than an album with a song that mentions a clan of gingerbread man? Answer that.

And whatever. If you're going to count someone's failures along with their successes, then Dylan has got to get out. Now.

Anyone who can last through "Self Portrait," 1973's eponymous "Dylan," "Saved," "Shot of Love," or "Knocked Out Loaded" is officially a god.

"Infidels," Empire Burlesque," and "Slow Train Coming" are pretty close to the ideal of crapness pioneered by those others, so listen to them for bonus points.

And heck, if you can listen to "Dylan & The Dead" too, then you're actually more than a god. Or something. Or do live albums not count?

Oh yeah. The Rolling Stones are in the same league. You try listening to "Undercover" or "Dirty Work" and not have to spend time in a mental ward afterwards. Me, I got as far as the first song for the latter (which is actually the best song on the record, from what I hear). And then I became yet another reincarnation of Napoleon; which I admit has lightened up my days, but you should still stay away from that album.

Oh, and I meant gingerbread men in the first-before-last post. Damn typos.

I blame all the misfortunes of my life on the trauma caused by snippets of Dylan's bad albums. Typos are merely one of them.

(I wish there was a way to edit former posts, to add things you think of later.)

And. Horriblealbums-wise, I could rave on about The Beach Boys aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaall night long.

Sinder Velvin. Thanks for inspiring an idea for me. I am going to make a best-of-the-"bad"-Dylan-albums mix. There are some good songs in those albums. For example, "Every Grain of Sand" off of "Shot Of Love" is a great tune...

I like Buddy Holly better than Pink Floyd, but never voted for either one.

I am going to make a best-of-the-"bad"-Dylan-albums mix.

Nooooooooooooooooooooo... Save yourself!

Well, whatever. It's your life, dude. Do what you like with it.

Just make sure you don't include any of the songs that Neil VanderWerf put on his list here

Because they are all shit.

I agree with nicolas about this game. Trashing music you don't like is a waste of time. What is gained? If you don't like it, don't listen. Why call somebody else stupid for liking what they like?

Promoting music that you like, on the other hand, is productive, because it helps spread the word to other people who might like the same music.

I think the negativity drives some people away.

Also, what is wrong with "Every Grain of Sand." Can you tell me why it is a bad song? I'm not going to save myself unless you give me a good reason.

"Promoting music that you like, on the other hand, is productive, because it helps spread the word to other people who might like the same music.

I think the negativity drives some people away."

I agree, Paul. It seems like we have a minor flame war about once a month in Survivor, which is really too bad, although all I can really do is issue a plea for civility and ask that everyone plays nice. In fact, the occasional negativity in Survivor has inspired a project that will actually promote music rather than punch holes in it (if anyone's still paying attention, yes, that's a hint).

Once again: if one of your favorites gets bounced, the appropriate response is not to attack the voters who did it, but to post your tribute to the artist on Henrik's thread.

Oh, and if my comments on Piper were construed by anyone as an attack on Pink Floyd, I'm sorry.

Don't le me be misunderstood : I like this game.
The other side of the coin is that it may help you question your tastes.

And negativity is funny when it's done with humor and you don't take it face value.
Some critics do that very well. It is a tricky job.

Let's keep in mind that it's a game. for my part, I'll try to tame my Latin temper and not overreact too much.

Paul, I never got as far as that song.

However, "Self Portrait" killed my family, paralyzed one half of my bady, made all of my sandwiches fall on the wrong side for eternity, made my cat become overweight, and made me run out of toothpaste.

Bob Dylan must die.

one half of my body

Sinder, you don't have to correct yourself all the time, we get what you're saying.

There isn't much love for garage rock on these forums but there seems to be a ton of support for late 60's psychedelia so it surprises me that there aren't more people championing Piper, and even more surprising that it's what makes some of you dislike Pink Floyd.

Sinder, you don't have to correct yourself all the time, we get what you're saying.


Yes, I know, but I don't want to seem too French (i.e. nicolasesque).

John, I love listening to Nuggets (both 1 and 2)! And Them! And Question Mark & The Mysterians' "96 Tears" is awesome!

But that's as far as my garage rock goes, other than the albums so-popular-that-they-aren't-even-garage-rock-anymore. (Like "Highway 61 Revisited" of course.)

Sinder Velvin: It looks kind of foolish for you to be criticizing music that you haven't heard. I should't have wasted my time with this discussion.

Paul: it looks similarly foolish of you to not realize that half of what I say is entirely facetious.

Yes, "Every Grain of Sand" is a beautiful song. Or would have been, if Dylan hadn't sung it like he had just gulped down 6 beers and a vodka. And the female singers in the background are cheesy.

But yeah. It's a beautiful song otherwise.

Oh, I realize I'm a fool. I'm 41 years old and spending my work day reading a rock music forum. I should be doing something productive.

I'm sorry, Paul. I didn't know you're that old. I thought you were in your 20's, for some reason. (I wish I was older too. Then I could joke with older people like nicolas as an equal, instead of being regarded as this annoying snotty kid that doesn't have anything better to do.)

I didn't mean you're fool. I was just saying the same thing you said. For some reason, people get upset with me when I do that.

Girlfriend: I'd be happy if you were happy.
Me: But I'd be happy if you were happy, too.
Girlfriend: Wait, are you saying I'm the reason for your unhappiness?

Slap, breakup.

People should lighten up.

What follows is the example of funny negativity.
It is a translation of an review by Nicolas Ugenmuth - (yes, him again, we don't have so many good critics in France)of Donald Fagen's "The Nightly Trilogy"

By posting this I'm putting my life and my family in danger, because you never know with Steely Danheads
I might be found dead in a dark alley soon
And my apologies to SD fans (I mean those who are sound in mind) but I read this yesterday and couldn't resist to post it
(Honorio, will we still be friends after that
I hope so
In fact I don't really hate Steely Dan

Some people really talk about Stealy Dan like this : seriously. But generally they’ve got a problem :
- Housing in a very remote country town;
- club foot;
- very restricted musical knowledge;
- a strange notion of jazz limited to Sting or Prince;
- no girlfriend;
- mummy used to dress them as girls or daddy still dresses as a girl on Saturday nights,
- or all the above.

Ever heard them ? superb, magic, subtle, with a tremor in their voices.
This fake oily jazz, upstart and petty bourgeois, administered by the worst studio musicians of the late seventies and used for supermarkets, hotel lobbies and oversized elevators of the PLM St Jacques [a big Parisian hotel built in the 70’s], this provincial thing for the very uneducated who probably never heard a single note from “The Individualism Of Gil Evans” or “Red Clay”.
But there is almost worse (indeed, it isn't, it’s hardly less terrible) : Donald Fagen in solo and his dreadful albums dripping with horrifically ugly horns, guitars and drums. God, who can really listen to this sonic paper wall playing the worst of Californian music of the ‘80s ? Tom Cruise, maybe...

oh, sorry for the italic f"&# up
after the italic part, it is still the review

Of course we are still friends, Nicolas. I don’t ask any of my friends to have a 100% of coincidences in our tastes.

Yes, Sinder Velvin, I am an F-ing dinosaur. I was born before Smile didn't come out the first time. I've got two kids a wife and a "real" job. Looking forward to that social security check in 24 years. So I am officially immune from being teased by snotty kids!