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After nicolas' wonderful job with the album poll, we need to decide what is going on with the song poll!
There is a lot to decide, from who is running the poll, when it will take place and other details (how many songs to submit, etc.)
I know Jackson and a few others have previously expressed interest in hosting the poll, but I don't think we've made anything official. I'm pretty sure I'm on board for the subsequent artist poll, but I can run the song poll if nobody wants to step up.
So let's sort it out here!
You beat me to the punch Moonbeam: I was just about to make a thread about the same thing! Like I've previously stated, I would like to run the poll, unless a longer-tenured forum member really wants to.
There are a couple questions I had for the forum:
First off, when do you want to do the poll? I was thinking submit lists in January and reveal in February so it wouldn't overlap with the 70s poll, but I'd be fine with doing it earlier.
How many songs do you want to submit? I was thinking 200, or possibly 300 if there was sufficient interest.
Also, what formula should be used to tabulate the results? I don't think it should be the same as the album poll formula.
If you have any other questions, ideas, comments, etc., like Moonbeam said, put them here!
I think the more songs we can include, the better. I can easily make a list of my top 500-1000 songs, whereas, I can have a tough time coming up with my "top" 200 albums without delving into albums I thought were just okay. There's just so many more songs I have heard than albums. This allows for an easier time coming up with an extensive list, but at the same time, allows for a lot more "surprises" to sneak in, so the more songs people put on their lists, the more matchups you will find between the lists.
I've found that with running many songs polls previous, 500 is a nice number. (Minimum 100, Maximum 500.) Not sure what formula makes the most sense, but some sort of similar weighting scale would be good.
January-February for submission makes sense -- good to let people know now so they can begin! Also, I know this is atypical around here, but what about letting people post their lists in the thread as it runs rather than keeping it "secret" ... it's a good way to remind people of things they forgot, especially with something as vast as songs.
Also, not to muddy the waters, but are we doing EOY and End of Decade lists? I'm chompin' at the bit for those...
I don't know about 500 songs. The only problem I would have again that would be that the task would be much harder for the poll host.
I'd be very happy for the songs list to have submissions of 300 or even 500 songs. It's up to the host, though.
(cheers) 500! 500! 500!
Last year P&J was last two weeks in December and first two weeks of January for albums, last two weeks of January for 1st round songs, and the first two weeks of February for 2nd round songs, with results on or about the 16th/17th of the month. I, for one, would like to keep this format; it worked quite nicely, especially with two rounds for songs. I wouldn't mind if it got pushed back until January for the start though. This leaves December open with the exception of the 70s poll unveiling. So I would suggest having a songs poll this year with the deadline as New Year's, and doing the unveiling in January.
And I would be willing to run one of the Pazz & Jop polls, if no one else wants to. (I would really like to run one of these things, but I'm terrible with Excel spreadshits.)
I would be willing to tabulate up to 500 songs, since I assume most people would include far fewer amounts of songs. But if that happened, the results might take a few weeks to add up after the poll ends, so I don't think I would get the list out a few days after the deadline like Nicolas did.
I also support the idea of posting the lists in the thread. This would allow for more commenting on individual lists, as opposed to the intimidating wall-of-lists that get posted after the poll. I don't think it would spoil the result or anything, especially since we already know a few songs that will be surefire top 20.
I have no preference for the timing of any of the polls, though I think waiting a while to do the EOD albums poll might be a good idea.
I felt that 500 songs would be too many if strategic voting would be allowed. But it's a major drawback of my suggested plan if fewer songs would be discussed. There are ways to come around this, for example with closed voting in stage 1, however that would require a lot more work by the moderator.
500 is way too much for the moderator.I can tell you that !
Henrik : I like your idea.
I think one of the good things about doing the polls as we have done them is that everyone's voice is equally heard. I only had 38 out of my top 200 albums make our collective top 200, but I still loved seeing where my other choices fared. I know my songs list will likely be even less represented in the overall top 200, so reducing the poll to a 2-stage process will take most of the fun out of it for me.
I don't really like the idea of a two-step process either. I think that would reinforce consensus favorites rather than introduce people to new songs, which is the point of doing the poll in the first place. Sure, people might have to listen to some new songs for the part II voting, but the results would likely be tailored more toward the more popular songs than great-yet-overlooked songs.
Just my view, but 500 is ridiculous. A smaller number forces one to take a serious critical look at one's list and whittle it down. 500 promotes flabbiness, IMO.
But whatever the maximum limit is, I personally won't be submitting more than 100. I just do not have time to type up 500 song titles and try to assess which should be no. #367 rather than #368 and #461 instead of #462.
I always have trouble with songs lists because of my tendency to listen to albums as a whole not paying attention to song titles. It'd be tough for me to get it out to 500. But, I have no problem with it going out that far for members who are more focused on singles.
Although, we might want to consider points going down slower than they do in the album poll.
I like the 2 step process idea a lot. It may be a little bit more of a consensus result than a straight 1 -step vote. However, if we keep the threshhold low for inclusion in the second round of balloting, I think we may find some surprises. And the individual lists from round 1 will get posted, so we can see all of the interesting outliers that our fellow forum buddies would like to highlight.
Best of all, however, will be the discovery process in the second round. I am sure that there will be lots of new songs that we will all have to listen to as part of that process. I think it could be really fun.
Whoever the moderator is should decide on the number of round 1 votes. I'm up for making my list up to 500, but wouldn't want to wish that counting job on anyone.
I can write a script to help with the vote counting, but the problem would be somebody would have to go through and merge together same entries that are spelled differently.
My input on the two step vote: I remember when we did that for the 2008 songs poll and it ended up the top of the poll was nothing but Fleet Foxes. I don't think it'd diversify the results very much, but it may make the ordering more fair, because it'll reduce the 'people voting against stuff they haven't heard' issue. (But then again, we've got Bracketology for that.)
Some points:
I've done several 500-max songs polls (with 100+ contributors), and it's not that bad, mainly since there are fewer repeaters. I can help with this if need be.
500 songs is assuredly NOT flabby. Most people here have more than 500 albums, and many more than that. It's very easy to get to 1000 songs one thinks are GREAT, if one has made music their main hobby. (I've been working hard to pare my list down from 3000, and it's been extremely painful.)
I feel very strongly about keeping with the normal method of voting, mainly because a lot of our polls have been trending toward the obvious in the results. I fear that even with strategic voting, too many babies would get lost in the bathwater through this method, and we would immediately be limited to the typical canon.
Another thing we can do : make a 2-step vote AND publish our original individual lists.
What i meant by flabby is not that people will choose not-so-great songs for their list. I have over 5000 CDs, so that is at least 50,000 songs, and I would have no trouble selecting 500 or several thousand great songs from among those.
By flabby, I meant that the process of choosing a smaller number forces one to make difficult critical decisions, which is what the list should be about. Someone said confining their list to under 500 would be "painful" -- and that is exactly what the process of deciding the best songs of all time should be, IMO.
But I know no one agrees with me.
Of course, as with the song list, one can submit as many songs (up to the limit) as one wants, or as few as one wants. In the albums list, I only submitted my top 100. I may do 200 for songs. But my pooor little fingers will never type up 500 songs, artists, years of release. If others want to, of course, that is just fine.
Hi Henrik,
No, it wasn´t you I was referring to, but to an earlier post by Jackson (see below).
I never said I would unveil the songs quickly if I was the moderator--I would do it over about a two-week period, as is the custom in these polls.
Also, I think people would listen to songs off of others' lists if they had the option of posting their lists on the forum instead of emailing them to the moderator. I just don't see much of an advantage to the two-step process, which would require more work for the voters and moderator.
I also think people should be allowed to vote for between 100 and 500 songs, so if the idea of listing 500 songs turns you off, you could still obviously participate.
It amazes me that people can have such long lists of favorite songs. I can handle albums, but a songs poll seems way too daunting. There are so many great songs that it would be impossible for me to even know where to start such an endeavor. And since individual songs are so unique in their goals and so dependent on mood, I'm pretty sure my #27 song one day would be my #3 song on another day and my #459 on yet another.
If I had a long time to prepare, I could come up with an unranked top 10 or 20 list, but that would be a challenge.
Like other guys, I'm not able to doing a song list. Too difficult for me, really.
I have some songs who carry me to heaven, some "madeleine de proust"'s songs. Maybe I can doing a list with 10 or 15 songs i love the most.
After this, I have thousand of songs I love, but doing a list whith these loving song ????
I've only recently found these forums, so I haven't participated in the other polls, but I'd like to participate in this one since it'd be fun. As such, my 1.25 cents:
-- I like the 500 number. I did a 'rough cut' on my collection (since it's almost completely digitized at this point) and came up with ~1500 tracks to consider. I'd imagine that cutting it from 1000 to 500 would be fairly difficult. This sounds about right to me. Also, more songs might make the overall list more 'accurate,' since my #401 favorite song could potentially give some extra weight to someone else's #27 favorite song.
-- What constitutes a "song"? Would it be limited by date or genre? (That is, would classical compositions be up for inclusion?) And what of multi-part 'songs'? (i.e. What'd I Say (Parts 1 & 2), or multi-suite prog songs?)
Also, I would be willing to help collate some of the data, if needed.
If it helps anyone worrying about typing out a long list,if you have an ipod and itunes,it's very easy to copy and paste favourite playlists or most played songs into excel.
With classical, it's tough, but I'd also use the 1 Track rule. It's pretty unlikely that many classical pieces will vie for the final list, so a limitation here probably would be more trouble than it's worth.
Probably what I like most about songs lists is all bets are off.
This thread has been pushed to the bottom with all the EOD lists that have come out in the past week, but it's about time that we make these decisions.
It seems like consensus favors one round of voting, with 100-500 songs being listed. I personally think voters should have the option to post their lists in the thread or by email, but I know some are against revealing lists before the deadline.
The main thing that needs to be decided is when the poll will be. I say we open the poll as soon as possible, then leave it open until mid-to-late January to give the voters and the host (likely me) enough time to compile the lists. What do you guys think?
I agree on all counts, Greg.
I dunno, I don't think suspense gets ruined by posting lists in the thread. Especially with songs lists, where everything is so disparate...to figure out the winner people would have do their own compiling, and that would be silly.
Personally, I think the individual lists are just as great as the ultimate results. They inevitably get lost in the flood when they're posted at the end...this way, they can be looked at closely as they're posted, and that's the most fun for me. The final list is the consensus, usually not many surprises. The individual lists are where the undiscovered gems are.
I agree with SonOfSam. In this matter :)
Should I just go ahead and get this started? It seems like discussion has stalled. I still favor making it optional to post lists in the thread as well as allowing emailed lists for those who want to keep their picks a surprise.
In hopes of getting this moving, I'll vote for the "optional posting" method. Start December 1 to give 2 full months for sending/posting entries.
My list is almost ready but I'd rather wait 'til January, I don't want people to forget about the 70s poll during December !