When going to France and need fuel there, don't pump the cheap E85 petrol, this is 85 % Ethanol, and will ruin older vehicles. It's marked "Super Ethanol"
Just a quick warning!
Cheers,
Lex
email (option): welbike@welbi**.net
Super unleaded used to be the fuel with least amount of ethanol so it’s now not the case - at least in France
Some of the independent tests we undertook at my place of work back a few years now - with varying percentages of ethanol led us to conclude that with EN15 EN20 - the real fun would begin for manufacturers/ but especially us classic vehicle enthusiasts
Rubber perishing will be least of our worries with this rot in our tanks
Jo’b
email (option): jonnyob1@googlemail.com
This stuff is not Super Unleaded John, It's Super Ethanol!! Ron
email (option): ronpier@talk21.com
Lex's cropped photo seems to suggest that E85 (85% ethanol) is also 85 Octane.
Belgium is as per UK, I think. 95 Octane is 10% ethanol (E10) and 98 Octane is 5% Max.
Up to the end of august 2023 Esso E5 contained no ethanol at all, at least in my area. I checked on their website. I bought 5 gallons and wintered my engines with it. My tuned Enfield 535 started much easier come spring. Apart from Ethanol being hydroscopic I don't have any problems using E10 on my 40's engines. I just don't leave it in for long periods. However it reduces the oil ratio in two stroke mix over time, leading to seizures, so I use E5 for chainsaws and mix no more than a gallon at a time. If it gets stale I dump it in my Series One.
I remember one two stroke MX manufacturer recommending mixing the oil and using in the same day!
Mark
email (option): pes.sales@btconnect.com
In the UK we have 95(E10) 97(E5) and 99(E5)
I always use 99 octane if possible or 97 if it's not available. I had to put 95 in my Norton Dommie and International, and they struggled to go after. I had to drain the tank and refill with proper fuel.
email (option): horror@blueyonder.co.uk
I was running on E95 at the weekend and if anything, it seemed to go better.
Condensation would be my main worry if it caused corrosion.
Mark
email (option): pes.sales@btconnect.com
Aloha,
Well actually, if you completely re-jet the carb your bike will run just fine on E85! :grinning: Fuel consumption increases with roughly 25 % and that is the ballpark where you start testing out jets.
A bit surprised you have no ethanol cars in UK? Was a big thing here in Sweden about 15-20 years ago, before electric was thought to be the future. Had a Saab 9-5 Biopower for a few years myself, 150 hp on gas and 185 on E85. Some people converted lawnmowers and such, for at bit of a cleaner "milieu" during garden work.
Best regards,
Simon
As M20s 16Hs etc run about 5 to 1 compression ratio they don't need high octane fuel. Their original jetting was based on something around 70. The only conceivable factor for a jetting change would be the viscosity. The octane rating is a red herring.
Aloha,
My post was about running a WD-bike on 85 % ethanol. As is the warning in the original message, E85 means 85 % ethanol.
/Simon
Since war time sidevalves ran for years on any old garbage, what makes them not able to cope with ethanol?
There are potential issues with these fuels...Ethanol attracts water and can absorb it from the atmosphere...This has rust implications if it's left for long periods in the petrol tank or carb...It can also have corrosive effects on brass, copper and zinc alloy die castings as the concentrations rise....Not great for the carb componemts and petrol taps and pipes...Rubber components can also be affected...Anecdotal evidence also indicates a rise in engine operating temperatures with this fuel...
It's effect on (optimum) ignition settings are unknown in relation to vintage motorcycles simply because, to my knowledge, no one appears to have done any testing...If they have I'd love to know the results...
As ethenol fuels have similar octane ratings to the usual pump petrol that is indeed not an issue...
Regarding actual effects, in my opinion first hand experience is always the best thing as long as the effects are assessed and analysed rationally and are accurate....Ian
email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com
They may have run on garbage, BUT the garbage was gasoline/petrol (depending on you inclination). It was not an all together different fuel made from biomass. With ethanol you are in fact running your car on booze.
The confusion in this thread (which amazes me, as I am usually the least knowledgeable person on this forum, but apparently ethanol as a fuel at petrol stations are unknown in the UK?) stems from the misconception that E85 is petrol when in fact it is not -it is a completely different thing! And it comes from wood! Or rather biomass.
E85 however means that 15 % of it is regular petrol, this is due to help cold starts in winter and what not, but for all practical purposes E85 IS ethanol, it is not petrol. There is therefor no point in talking about octane when it comes to E85, it has no octane -octane is for petrol.
The energy content of ethanol is about 33% less than petrol. This means that the engine will in fact run much leaner on ethanol, equivalent to if you decreased the jetting in your carb with 33%. And I am sure everyone her understands that this would not be healthy for you engine.
Best regards, Simon
Some reading on the matter: https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/biofuels/ethanol.php https://afdc.energy.gov/fuels/ethanol-e85 https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=27&t=4 https://afdc.energy.gov/fuels/ethanol-fuel-basics https://echa.europa.eu/sv/substance-information/-/substanceinfo/100.000.526 https://www.epure.org/press-release/eu-renewable-ethanol-sets-new-record-for-greenhouse-gas-reduction-confirming-its-importance-for-transport-de-fossilisation/ https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_23_6372 (The pinned post with instructions how to make links clickable is gone, and I have forgotten how to -sorry)
E85 is not currently sold in the UK...However, it was and is rated to have an equivalent octane rating of 109....E10 is generally available in the UK and has a recognised octane equivalent of 95...E5 is also sold here and has a lower octane rating..
The purpose of this octane rating is to enable purchasers buying fuels with an ethanol content to buy the fuel most suited to their engines characteristics (primarily compression ratio) just as they would with petrol...Octane rating refers to the fuels ability to resist pre detonation (knocking or pinking) and not specifically it's overall burn characteristics, which is why I wondered about igntion timing settings..As ethanol fuel burns faster I imagine the advance figure will need to be adjusted...My understanding is that the fuel/air mixture will need to be richened by approx. 5% but I'd have to do more research on that....I don't think these experiments and adjustments are really needed for the fuels currently available in the UK but would be for E85 I'd have thought....Ian
email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com
The purpose of this octane rating is to enable purchasers buying fuels with an ethanol content to buy the fuel most suited to their engines characteristics (primarily compression ratio) just as they would with petrol...Octane rating refers to the fuels ability to resist pre detonation (knocking or pinking) and not specifically it's overall burn characteristics, which is why I wondered about igntion timing settings..As ethanol fuel burns faster I imagine the advance figure will need to be adjusted...My understanding is that the fuel/air mixture will need to be richened by approx. 5% but I'd have to do more research on that....I don't think these experiments and adjustments are really needed for the fuels currently available in the UK but would be for E85 I'd have thought....Ian
Ian, I stand corrected in the octane issue!
For a while about 15 years ago it seemed as if ethanol would be the energysource of future here in Sweden and a lot of us started discussing converting our old bikes to run on the booze instead. A few even went ahead and did it, i never did myself and did never really got into to learning about the whole re-jetting thing.
On semi-old cars it was a lot easier, as long as they had fuel injection and a lambda sensor could thus be modified (all cars from I think 1987 an on has a lamda sensor). Reasons to this was two: Cheaper fuel and care for the environment. Saab went a step further and increased the turbo-pressure on Biopower-models when run on E85, giving for example 150 and 185 hp respectively from the same engine dependant on what you put in the tank.
Oh well, I guess best way to look for more info would be the world of Speedway and Iceracing since they run och methanol?
Best regards,
Simon
I use Super unleaded E5 which is 99 octane. Ron
email (option): ronpier@talk21.com
OK to recap:smile: ethanol is hydroscopic and slightly corrosive. which from using chainsaws a lot I knew [old ethanol is said to have the ability to scour magnesium crankcases, possibly related to it's leaning down oil ratios over time] and E85 may need a bigger main jet and needle adjustment, or not, depending on what the fuel mix was like in the first place.
I well remember all the panic and misinformation on unleaded: pretty irrelevant since my Series one and sidevalves were pre lead and all my jap stuff is post lead. Which just leaves my old Guzzi single. I leave E10 in that all winter and it starts first kick
The commencement of this thread was about E85, not E10 and the two are not the same thing at all...I think everyone here is aware that E10 doesn't cause any really serious problems and the effects it does have can be avoided or mitigated relatively easily...Draining the tank and carb for example if the bike is not being used for long periods...The most serious effects that come to mind are the destruction of fibre glass petrol tanks and early tank lining materials and it's effects on earlier rubber components...I've had a rubber petrol pipe fail but it was easily sorted by using ethanol resistant pipe...
The use of lead additives, or not, is a completely different subject with it's own set of peculiarites and is pretty much unrelated to the effects of 85% ethenol fuels...I recall in the UK lead was added to fuels during the war initially but was used pre war in the USA...Most misinformation was provided by VMCC and club night hysteria, people incorrectly diagnosing problems and just blaming it on unleaded fuel and the efforts of snake oil sellers offering a cure all....Ian
email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com