The ledgers don't specify a colour for Chris' W/NG unfortunately. But we do know that it was despatched from the factory on September 4th 1941.

Chris' bike comes from a contract for which we do not even have a contract number!



Hope Messrs O&M don't mind me putting this page on the forum... 😊

I have lots of W/NG RAF pictures with census numbers around RAF 94xxx - 95xxx, but these are all contract C/S14218 bikes. I also found RAF 30547, this is an earlier bike. Could be from Chris' contract, as there only seems to be one other early RAF contract, for 107 frames and 87 engines...?




The Ariel in the pictures above doesn’t have the typical “hooded” blackout mask yet, which came out “halfway 1941”. It also has a rear mounted air filter, and although I’ve got several pictures of motorcycles with rear mounted air filters, I’ve never come across such a filter before!

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Rob, I had several NOS Lucas MT1130 taillamps, in RAF blue, and still have an MT110 in same colour, so it was for sure used pre-war.

Speedo's were still made for the Army in the 1960's or was it a pin drive?

Anyway, nothing here indicates the use of the RAF blue between 1940-1945.

Cheers,

Lex

email (option): welbike@welbi**.net

I have an RAF blue "Fag End" tail lamp cover with the tiny aperture, thats probably 1940-45?

The speedo had a plate on the back I think with a wartime date?

And wasn't the MT1130 used on some Ariels at one point?

Rob

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk

Ok, interesting, then some stuff from 1941 got painted blue (speedo's with a plate on the back were used up to
end of 1941, same as the fag end taillamps, too many accidents with those, so was short lived) and expands the timeline a bit, but all these accesories may have been painted blue, but that doesn't mean the whole bikes were ofcourse.

Cheers,

Lex

email (option): welbike@welbi**.net

Lex were those MT1130'S? or more likely the car wing sidelights 1130? Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Ron I know the difference!! And still regret that I sold them all!!!



Cheers,

Lex

email (option): welbike@welbi**.net

The last reference that I've seen to blue vehicles is in the Ministry of Supply summary ledger for Norton contract 294/C/9891 (Demand 15/2/41) which is annotated :-

"Note 19/3/41. Agree to accept 20 motorcycles finished in RAF Blue-Grey - delivery already effected. All future machines to be Khaki Green No.3 as WD Spec MC205"

It sounds as if they weren't best pleased. It's probably unlikely that any vehicles were delivered in blue after this.

Presumably any deliveries of BSA or Ariel to the RAF prior to December 1939 or so would have been blue-grey and fitted with MT1130 ? The problem is that neither production records, nor contract info seems to show any.

Couldn't the last blue machines have been nearer to the 19/3/41 date you mentioned?

Rob

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk

Bloody Hell Lex. I think I remember that "Nathan" paid over £800 for one. I've only ever had one original which was only about 30 Quid at the time. It was black over Khaki.

According to Steve Madden, At the outbreak of hostilities, all RAF vehicles were hurriedly painted with drab paint even if aircraft or hanger paint had to be used. All subsequent vehicle were supplied from the factories in service colour. Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

In this picture it looks to me as though they couldn't wait to get back to the firms colours and have painted one half of their Indian 741 tanks in gloss RAF Blue. Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Euh... What is F MT F...? Google could only find MTF, Male To Female. Don't think it's that... 😳

Anyway, any ideas about the air filter? Never seen anything like this...

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Rob, my thinking was that the MT1130 ceased to be fitted during late 1939. By 1940, BSA seem to have been using the MT110...Assuming they are a British RAF colour and not produced for an overseas customer ?

That airfilter is US made, generators had them.

Lex

email (option): welbike@welbi**.net

Apologies for the F MT F stuff, chaps.

I attempted to type "RAF MT" a couple of times in my reply but the letters disappeared. Now I know at least where they went...into the title box. What I don't understand is how !

In the end, I gave up and wrote something shorter :grinning:

Some Ariels were produced for the French government, not sure if they were all delivered, what colour did the French Air Force use?

Rob

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk

I have caught up with the current owner of the RAF blue speedo and here are the pictures.

Rob

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk

Nice speedo! I checked my files, and have a pin drive with a 3-'42 date listed, an Anti-Clock model, believed to be for a Royal Enfield, after that the more common later type was used.

So what bikes were listed as an RAF contract in the beginning of 1942?? It could just be that the speedo's were blue, and the rest of the bike green or brown ofcourse.

Cheers,

Lex

email (option): welbike@welbi**.net

Heres the blue "Fag End" cover, the colour has gone quite dark on the outside but is still quite fresh inside.

Rob

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk

I'm puzzled by the speedo. The application of paint to a dull-chromed "ridged" bezel doesn't conform with pre-war practice. The screws from the type plate have clearly been removed at least once. What might the small "SR/42" indicate ? "Service Repair" perhaps ?

Presumably if an instrument went back to Smiths for overhaul, for guarantee purposes, it would be fitted with a data plate bearing the current date ?

We'll never know, but could this instrument have been a service-repair for a pre-war RAF Norton sidecar outfit or similar ? It's quite likely that those in use for tasks such as ferrying messages and staff around the Air Ministry might not have been re-painted.

RAF blue Lucas or Smiths instruments are bizarre, but I'll ask another question: 99% of the "projects" that have been bought by forum members still have some original paint somewhere (under a coat of post war civilian paint, or inside the brake drums, or inside the primary chain cover, or inside the headlight, ...). I'm keeping a Register for the WD Royal Enfields, and I have to say that I have never come across original RAF blue paint on RAF contract bikes (and there are a few...). Has anybody ever seen original RAF blue on an unrestored bike...? (BSA, Norton, Ariel, ...)

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Jan, I think you are right, maybe some accessory parts were painted blue, but never the bikes!

Cheers,

Lex

email (option): welbike@welbi**.net

['Has anybody ever seen original RAF blue on an unrestored bike...? (BSA, Norton, Ariel, ...)..']

Only on a post war Triumph TRW!...Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Lex the only WD bikes with an Anti Clock speedo were the Royal Enfield WD/G and WD/L. Both mine came without a working speedo. I acquired a NOS 1942 dated AC speedo with the correct part number on the brass tag which is on my WD/G. For the WD/L, David Woods reworked a standard pin drive speedo for me to reverse the action. Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

This reference by Rik is the only real evidence I have seen, but there don't appear to be any RAF Norton contracts prior to this to explain Nortons "mistake".

We know there was a policy to use up existing stocks before changes in basic camoflage schemes but it doesn't help here.

It appears the 50 post office BSA M20 outfits delivered in 1942 were in KG3 with a GPO made red box body but may have them been repainted later.

In my opinion there is not enough evidence yet to say that some machines (Ariel, BSA, Matchless, etc) delivered in 1940-41 weren't blue, but even if they were they were probably soon overpainted, so you could argue a factory finish, but it would be very hard to explain its appearence in a Normandy event, but maybe its no worse than taking a BEF period vehicle on a 30 Corps tour?:smiley:

Rob

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk

Touché, Mr. Miller. :relaxed:

There were definite pre-war Norton sales to the Air Ministry, at least 300 in 1939. I'm not sure why they don't appear in O&M - there is next to no contract info available though, but the Norton ledgers show a fair number, both solo and combination.

It's likely that this well-known image shows a pre-war RAF outfit in gloss blue-grey, contrasting with the matt KG van behind.

With Jaeger-drive speedo from the look of it..and an M1130 on the sidecar ?



I imagine that such a blue sidecar outfit, if it was in use in London alongside red buses would not immediately have been repainted ?