I've noted that difference Steve, but was not aware that it was a BSA thing. I just assumed it was either different manufacturers or economy measures.....Like the deletion of brass wing nuts. I'll have to have a look round and see how many "BSA" pannier racks I have! Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

I have a pair of the wing nut type and the "Matchless" sliding clip type and they both have 8 holes drilled in the bottom rail, in pairs so it appears they are theoretically universal.

And judging by the gap between the two top mounting holes being universal it would seem that the various makers made their machines to fit the frames?

1 2 - 3 4 - 5 6 - 7 8

Looking from the front of the frames (outside), my BSA is using 1 3 and 7 on the right hand side and 2 6 and 8 on the left

Which bottom rail holes do the other makes and models use?

Rob

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk

Yes, they are universal! Just like the universal saddles, made in a Terry design and in a Lycett design, by different manufacturers. But you could swap them around without any problem (unlike the earlier saddles).

Enfield uses 3 8 (LHS), 1 6 (RHS)
Matchless uses 1 2 8 (LHS), 1 7 8 (RHS)
Norton uses 1 2 7 8 (both sides)

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Did anyone use 4 and 5 or were they another waste of taxpayers money?

Rob:grinning:

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4 and 5 were a ploy to confuse the Germans...Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

I'm not convinced that this is BSA-only Steve. There are so many detail differences when you start comparing these frames:
- triangulair or trapeze gusset plates
- rounded or sharp cornered trapeze gusset plates
- the 3 reinforcement strips are always welded, sometimes also riveted
- depth of D shaped cut for the rivets differs
- the beads in the trays very (sometimes shallow, sometimes deeper)
- the shape of the cutout in the trays varies
- the shape of the D shackle clamps varies







And this frame clearly comes from a Norton (bottom brackets), but it's "BSA spec"?



This is a factory picture of a WD/CO:

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Oh, I see what you mean now Steve, it's the dished washer halfway, not at the top of the hinge! As in the two pictures below. Stupid me... 😊




But anyway, the Norton frame also has this washer halfway. The original frame(s) could of course have been replaced on this Norton...

Edit: I've just had a look at all my BSA pictures, and I found three pictures where the inside of the hinges is visible. Guess what, all three of them have the dished washer halfway!





And I've found two Norton pictures, both with "plain" hinges:

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Hi Jan, I did some research a few years ago on pannier frames, going through original wartime photos and parts books, I ruled out Ariel and Royal Enfield due to the illustrations in the parts books, ruled out Matchless due to their slider type, ruled out Triumph with original photos of 3HWs & TRWs, which left BSA & Norton, didn't see any on Norton photos, but did see that some BSAs had them, that's how I narrowed that type to BSA, although can't never be 100% sure because the parts books aren't always correct, your Norton pannier frame photo is interesting, will see if I can find some wartime Norton photos with that type fitted.

Isn't it more likely that this was a time related modification/improvement, pannier frames are susceptible to vibration.

The early BSA (1942) modification drawings are just drawings but they show the washer at the top so I think if the middle washer had been there at the time it would have been shown.

Rob

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk

These pictures also show the rack has the the rear pillion seat supprt brackets extended below the cross member and bolted to the mudguard..This is not the case with later racks...Were those two extended brackets ever fitted?....Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Yes I have seen these early carriers. note also the middle cross piece is tubular rather than flat section and I seem to remember some triangular gussets somewhere, I don't know if complete machines left the factory with this carrier for a period of time or if they were only used in the upgrade kits?

Rob

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk

My carrier has the extended legs to the mudguard and the tube cross piece with gussets. My pannier frames also have the midway washers. Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

I've had a good look through my catalogued Norton photographs and can find no examples of side stays featuring the secondary detents.

This is from the very last, curtailed WD contract...if they didn't have them, then I assume that none did.

A slight correction to Ian's post on the 11th regarding OEC (Osborne engineering company).. ..the company moved from Gosport,just across the water, to Pompey in 1933...
Since the 20's they were a motorcycle manufacturer (using proprietary engines,Blackburne ,JAP and more) by the time the war broke out they went into producing solely for the war effort including the panjandrum and aircraft parts...they had a reputation for slightly eccentric machines and were also involved in a scandal in 1930 regarding a world motorcycle land speed record.... they submitted some truly bonkers prototype military 3 wheeled vehicles to the government in the late 20's....(definately worth looking up the history on the marque.never a dull moment!)...I had a go on a mates OEC Commander, with the ludicrously complex " duplex" steering and it actually handled very well!........as a little footnote "Montgomery of Alemain" was portsmouth football club president postwar..!...regards to all you fine fellows...pip pip

email (option): jacko1977pfc@gmail.com

I've now looked at lots of BSA photographs and in most cases saying the washer is there is an enormous leap of faith, but it appears that when the washer is fitted the slot in the strut doesn't go all the way to the bottom.

There are photos of M20s with the slot all the way down but these machines are probably 1942 or before, I'm strugling to find later war M20s without the short slot so it appears that Steve may be right, BSAs were factory fitted with a specific pannier frame with middle washers except in the case of the retro kits and possible early on?

Rob

Early machine, long slot.





Later machine, short slot.

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