Looking at the B30 production records engine number WB30.535 was supplied directly to AMC to be fitted into a Matchless frame as part of the production rationalisation process that was planned around 1940-41...As far as I'm aware none of these 'hybrid' motorcycles still exist and I assumed they were broken up when the project was shelved...
It seems that may have been the case as the REME sectioned B30 engine that I have is that very engine...WB30.535...Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Hi Ian
Yours has the lightened idler gear too I see
Are your rocker covers alloy or steel ?

Br
Job

email (option): jonnyob1@googlemail.com

Aluminium rocker covers and hairpin valve springs as fitted to early types....As far as I'm aware they all have the lightened idler gear..Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Here it is fitted in the Matchless...Note the early alternator lighting set up which was unsuccessful....The cut away engine has a magdyno fitted. I have a picture of another B30 with the early set up initially and then retro fitted with a magdyno and DU42 etc...
It also has the B30 gearbox and the BSA frame 'kink' to clear the oil pump bulge in the crank cases...Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

All the records I have seem to show Engine 535 being fitted into BSA frame WB30 147?

Rob

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk

Nice piece of history Ian. I notice that the timing case breather wasn't fitted to all of them? Yet this blue print shows it on an engine with hairpin springs? Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

I've often wondered why contract C13683 for 100 bikes with matching numbers 501-600 yet 50 engines with some of those same numbers were used in the previous contract? Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

And it looks to have vertical/parallel camfollowers instead of inclined?? Br Michiel

Inclined Michiel. Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

I'm pretty sure my engine drawings show the dates of the changes to breather and the valve springs...I have three B30 engine drawings in all detailing the different types...
Regarding the engine no. 535 the factory ledgers do indeed show it fitted to the frame detailed by Rob....I now have to go back to try and find where it was I got the AMC connection from for that unit as I have it listed for that application in one of my own listings..!...
Below is a copy of the ledger...Whether there were any changes subsequently is a matter of conjecture unless I can find the information again....Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

One theory is that the original 50 were sent out for testing with matching numbers but the alternators fitted were no good, possibly the drag from them causing excessive wear to the drive train, BSA didn't want to drop the project so were permitted to start again with new magdyno fitted engines instead, a set of engines being made available from the other contract already under construction.

But we may never know for sure.

Rob

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk

In the MEE ledgers, the hybrids that I found listed are as follows :-

Ariel - Frame XG15690 - Engine WB30 523
Matchless - Frame 13084 - Engine WB30 556
Norton - Frame W29641 - Engine WB30 522
Enfield - Frame 1042 - Engine WB30 540

MEE also tested three WB30s:-

WB30 101 / 512
WB30 125 / 508
WB30 149 / 548

There may of course have been others. Researching in the National Archives involves a degree of guesswork and intuition.

@Rick: did you check all the copies of the files I have send you earlier?

Below the Ariel and Norton fitted with a WB30 engine. The page is from the inventory book with all test vehicles of the MWEE. I remembered that all types of vehicles were randomly written down in the book (tanks, motorcycles, etc.). I had to check every single page not to miss any motorcycle.

email (option): wdmotorcycles@gmail.com

Below some details from a BSA Matchless and Matchless BSA combination.

email (option): wdmotorcycles@gmail.com

Bastiaan, I just went to a file that I think I made in December 2012 after an NA visit . Did I get something wrong ? Jan and I tried to use the indices in the ledgers, they seemed to be accurate.

@ Rick: no you did absolutely nothing wrong. All the numbers you provided regarding the 'combination' motorcycles are right. I found them as well but I think in a different file at Kew.

I was just wondering if you used the files I have send you earlier, but I now understand you have made your own list based on info you and Jan found earlier.

email (option): wdmotorcycles@gmail.com

Extremely interesting gents.

I would love to find a WD B30 engine, what a project to ‘recreate’ one of these ‘hybrids’.

A rare item to find I am sure.

The engines do turn up now and again...I know of three that have appeared in the recent past...When I was restoring mine I ended up with quite a lot of spares, in fact I had four cylinder heads at one point..!!...The rare thing is complete bikes...Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Bastiaan, same files I think but different table ! :grinning:



You found a lot of Norton test stuff that I missed, but I think that my ledger entries were fairly complete.

Ian, I am still constantly surprised of some of the rare items that still turn up.

If you hear of one, in any condition, kindly bear me in mind 😊.

I am still currently working on my WD BSA C10 so I will be kept busy for a little while anyway.

email (option): findingsteveo@hotmail.com

Hi Ian, one of the hybrids has survived, I have XG15685 the Matchless engined Ariel. It is documented in the second edition of BFM. Steve Madden and I have had many lengthy discussions about how it managed to survive being broken up. It does still have its 1942 Bristol registration number so we can surmise testing had finished and it managed to escape by then. The contract plate was still on the rear guard. Under the chassis contract no. its stamped TT2/DDS/1752 which Steve deciphered as a WVEE demand number. Under the catalogue ref no. its stamped 8X.
When I acquired it a G3L engine with an "LAC" engine number. I wonder if there is any mention of it in the MWEE ledgers.
Cheers, Mick.

email (option): 1963mickholmes@gmail.com

Mick, This is the summary / index page from the MWEE ledger.



Unfortunately, a chopped-off page top on the actual entry. No engine number stated. It went to Glasgow, to the "Home Grown Timber Dept." of the Ministry of Supply on 10/4/1943. Their HQ prior to 1943 was in the Elmdale Hotel, Bristol !

Thank you so much Rik, another snippet to add to the history. The bike was found in Aberdeen so it didn't travel too far.
Cheers, Mick.

email (option): 1963mickholmes@gmail.com

Mick,

Could you please share some photos of your bike here on the forum? I will check my photos of the Kew files, I think I have a photo of the complete page with that Ariel/Matchless combination.

Regards,
Bastiaan

email (option): wdmotorcycles@gmail.com

The Disposals of the Matchless-engined hybrids are interesting. Rather than returned to makers in April 1943, they seem to have gone to Ministry of Supply subsidiary organisations who probably already had a variety of civilian models to look after.

The Enfield/ Matchless went to H.G.T.P. again (at Aberdeen) 9th April.

The Norton/Matchless was handed over to A.O.R.G. Roehampton on 9th April. (The Army Operational Research Group) as was the Matchless /BSA.

The BSA-Matchless went to H.T.P.D. (Home Timber Production Department) at what looks like Perth. 11th June 1943. The frame had an EX prefix.

It's unclear if HGTP and HTPD were actually one and the same...it looks like it from the N.A. records.

Here it is, no additional information at the top of the page compared to the photo of Rik.

email (option): wdmotorcycles@gmail.com