John and Mike say they haven't found WM20 7133 in the Irish records (yet), so maybe this isn't proof that two WM20 7133 frames existed but just the desiniation written in the BSA factory ledger was wrong, these ledgers were only for BSAs use during production I don't suppose they had any idea that we would get so excited about them all these years later.

However this is a great opportunity to find out with further research in Ireland.

Rob

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk

Contract C5110 is extremely complex.

- It was originally a contract for 2777 bikes (census numbers C3928419 - C3931195).
- Then the contract was amended and they added another 1000 bikes (census numbers C3934710 - C3935709).
- Then they added another 2000 bikes (census numbers C4105401 - C4107400).
- Then there was another batch of 2223 bikes (census numbers C4123773 - C4125995).
- Then there was a final batch of 100 bikes (census numbers C4137042 - C4137141).
This makes a total of 8100 bikes. But according to the Chilwell "Receipt Card", this was a contract for 8000 bikes, which should be the sum of the 5 batches. And it looks as if the last batch was produced to compensate for 100 bikes that weren't delivered (because they went to Ireland...?)

This theory can be confirmed by the BSA frame book:
- Frames #5001 - #7100 (2100 bikes): destination War Office London (this destination was filled in at the top of each page, and copied with " symbols for the rest of the lines on the page)
- Frames #7101 - #7104 (4 bikes): destination Ministry of Defense Dublin (this destination was written over the " symbols, so the destination had been changed)
- Frames #7105 - #71144 (40 bikes): destination "War Office London" was overwritten with "Ministry of Defense Dublin", and this was copied for the rest of the page with " symbols.
- Frames #7145 - #7200 (56 bikes): the destination "War Office London" at the top of the page was crossed out, and replaced by the new destination "Ministry of Defense Dublin", and this was also copied for the rest of the page with " symbols
- Frames #7200 - #13100 (5900 bikes): destination War Office London




So it looks as if the final batch of 100 bikes (census numbers C4137042 - C4137141) has indeed been added to the contract to compensate for the 100 bikes that had all of a sudden been despatched to Ireland!

This looks like a nice theory, and maybe Mick / John will find proof in the Irish Archives.

But... If numbers #7101 - #7200 went to Ireland, then why do we find numbers #7152 and #7177 in the British Key Cards, with matching census numbers? And why did the supposedly Irish bike (with which this discussion all started) end up in Italy, with a British contract engine? Please John / Mick, the whole world is eagerly awaiting the results of your research! 😄

Jan

email (option): wd.register@gmail.com

Hi jan
Our planned trip in December was put off due to me getting Ill - Michael & I hopefully will go again together later in January -

We have quite a few anomalies on numbers we want to check on & it’s easier with 2 sets of eyes etc to get through the records

I have a KM series frame here I need to track too - with sidecar lugs - 4952 but - under the 4 it seems there was a 7
So the frame is either 4952 or 7952

More mysteries

Jo’b

email (option): jonnyob1@googlemail.com

Ho John,

Frame #4952 was indeed despatched to the "Dept. of Defense" in Dublin.
I have lots of examples where somebody mis-stamped a number and stamped the correct number over the mistake. So I'd go for 4952, not 7952 (which is far too big for KM production anyway).

Cheers,
Jan

email (option): wd.register@gmail.com

Following my previous post... Just had a look at the engine ledger. No overwritten or crossed out destinations here:
- Destination "War Office - London" up until #7100
- Destination "Ministry of Defense - Dublin" from number #7101 onwards.
The WM BSAs had matching numbers, which makes separate frame and engine ledgers unnecessary. But they were used to separate books, and that's how they continued, notwithstanding the fact that both books contained exactly the same information! It looks as if the frame ledger was the "master" ledger, and all the data from the frame ledger were copied in the engine ledger. Obviously the errors weren't copied, so no overwritten or crossed out destinations here...

But: the "Ministry of Defense (Dublin)" entries continue up until number #7239 (139 bikes) in the engine ledger, where the "Ministry of Defense (Dublin)" entries in the frame ledger stopped at #7200 (100 bikes). Must have been an error in the engine ledger me thinks... 🧐

Jan

email (option): wd.register@gmail.com

John has asked me to post these pictures of #4952. I would say that the man who had to stamp this number had a number 7 in his hands while he thought it was a 4. He noticed his mistake and quickly stamped a 4 over the 7… Errare humanum est... 😊 Please give us your comments!

email (option): wd.register@gmail.com

Yes, factory misstamp, i would say..

Not sure, the 4 looks to be smaller.

Lex

email (option): welbike@welbi**.net

I've enlarged and printed the picture, and measured the numbers. The 4 has the same height as the 5 and the 2. It's the 9 that is 10% taller... 🧐 Again something that is not really unusual with these old stamps.

email (option): wd.register@gmail.com