Hi Guys,

Yesterday I was picking up about 50% of an early M20 project. The seller had a cabinet with nice little motorcycle related things. I noticed a very special item in the cabinet. See the photos below. I managed to buy it. The first original one I have ever seen.

Regards,
Bastiaan





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email (option): wdmotorcycles@gmail.com

I gave Arnaud my original shorter lid which he used for the logo for his second pattern mold. I don't know where he got the maroon colour research from though. I'm wondering if they were black or maybe Bakelite Brown?? Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

It’s a real nice find that Bastiaan

I had thought my March 1940 deluxe had this fitted but it seems that with correspondence from BSA to the irish defence forces in 1940 - BSA had stated they had discontinued it in December 1939 - they apologised & stated they would send a new instruction booklet

I do however now have 90% of a 39 deluxe ~ I will use my empty ni fe battery box on that
Br
Job

email (option): jonnyob1@googlemail.com

It is clear from the pictures of Bastiaan that the lid has the same colour as any other battery material.
They were all made from hard rubber/Ebonite/Vulconite type materials (material composition of rubber, sulpher and additions and long time vulcanisation process), regardless of who made them.
The only difference for the C105 was the addition of a sheet metal housing to make them more resilient to external forces as expected on motorcycles.

I don't know why Arnaud came to the brown colour but I think it was discussed here years ago.
I have one of his latest versions and I think it is done very well.
I will paint the entire box Dark Bronze Green anyway so am not to much troubled by the now definitly incorrect colour.
I just wonder if I will try to make a stainless outer cover for it.

Also very clear that they were never made by Lucas but by Nife Batteries Ltd Redditch.

I also still do not know why none have surfaced. There have been several standard PUW 7E's found over the years.
I know that numbers made/used does make a difference but still.

Cheers,

Rob

email (option): wd16h@telfort.nl

I've had it in mind to spray the lids of my NIFE's black for some time. Most of the pictures I've seen seem to show them in standard finish rather than service colour.

Rob do you mean they were made FOR Lucas and not by them? Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Hello Ron,

It took me some time to sink in but the text in the battery lid states exactly that: "Made expressedly for Joseph Lucas Ltd Birmingham England by Batteries Ltd Redditch."
For some reason I missed the post on this forum with the C124 battery lid some years ago but found it recently.
It is also clearly on the C105 lid that Bastiaan found in Denmark, of all places.

The actual British company name was "Alkaline Batteries Ltd, Hunt End, Redditch".
Alkaline Batteries Ltd was a licensee of the Jungner in Sweden. After WW1 the British Admiralty did not want to be "trapped again" as they were originally supplied through Germany prior to the war with the obvious supply issues during the hostilities.
The oval is a brand logo owned by Jungner in Sweden.

The C105 battery was designed in Sweden by the Jungner company in 1935!

I will make a page on this on my website with a little more info soon, including a nice surprise!
Waiting for some more info to come in.

Cheers,

Rob

email (option): wd16h@telfort.nl

Ha Ha yes indeed Rob! If all else fails, read the bloody instructions:flushed: Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

If you look at old picture of Ni-Fe batteries, you can see the lid is a lighter colour than the black layer below it. I've also got pictures where they're all black. I've given up trying to post pictures here with a touch screen device.

email (option): horror@blueyonder.co.uk

My feeling is that regardless of whether the stainless box was painted or not, the rubber interior was always black and the lids were painted 'Service Colour'. This could be Gloss Bronze Green, Matt Bronze Green, KG3 or RAF Blue-Grey. The Kidbrooke series of images appear to confirm this. The images suffer from past reproduction, but tonally, there is no difference with the retaining straps.

It seems a bit odd that only the lids were painted in 'service colour' as Rick is suggesting. Why didn't they paint the hole battery and only the lids? I know that the battery of the BSA WM20 prototype from 1937 was painted fully in 'service colour', as I have found a photo of that 1 in Kew. That is the only photo I have ever found with a painted nife battery.

Regards,
Bastiaan

email (option): wdmotorcycles@gmail.com

email (option): wdmotorcycles@gmail.com

The answer may lie in the fact that the batteries were bought-in. Lucas had the licence for automotive Ni-Fe sales for the UK. The battery carriers were Lucas parts supplied in Service Colour. Might the top-cover mouldings not have been as well ? Maybe the painted cases were a Norton thing...or a 1936 - '38 practice that had been discontinued before the KM20 came on stream ?











This case doesn't look painted..certainly not KG No.3 but the lid is a different colour from the black inner container.

It is true! The lid is always a lighter colour. Can we find a civilian picture to show them in black. Did they really only paint the lid?

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

I don't think that I've ever seen a photo of a civilian motorcycle fitted with an expensive optional extra Ni-Fe battery (£2-7s instead of 19/6d)..the 1930s Lucas catalogue illustrations though appear to show no colour difference between lid and inner case.

Interesting that Lucas made a 4 volt version at the head of the second listing...What bike had 4 volt electrics?...Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Strange eh ? Was it for non-dynamo lighting only and charged off the bike ? Pre-war wireless accumulators were 2v, I believe.

Early Maglites were only 4 volt so would need a 4 volt battery for its 8 watt headlight bulb.Later ones were 6 volt.

After riding with an 8 watt headlamp bulb the glow from a blackout mask must have made them feel quite at home...
Having ridden my bikes at night over Dartmoor many times (without any streetlights) but with a standard 6 volt Lucas set up I don't think I'd relish any less lighting..It's nearly impossible to see the sheep, cows, badgers, rabbits, foxes and ponies as it is!!....:milky_way: Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Gents

I have no doubt whatsoever that the lid is made from the same material as the basic body of which you can see a black line below the lid. As far as I can remember I have never seen an old battery lid from different material than the body.
The battery lid found by Bastiaan really confirms this.

Although it is a bit incomprehensive but I think Rik is right and that the lids were painted in service colour in a number of cases.
There is really no tonal difference between the straps and the lids on the various pictures that are available.

The why and how remains a mystery and will probably not be solved. Maybe they deleted the painting of the metal on later batteries by lack of proper pretreatment to have a good adhesion between paint and metal. The paint layer seems to have been very low adhesion and they might just have decided it was not worth the trouble.

The batteries in 1937 (metal and lid) were definitly in service green as the picture of the inside of the Norton factory, some threads back, clearly shows.

Looking at the Ni-Fe filling picture Rik supplied, the top lid also shows to be painted while the rest is just black.

Search for an original battery continuous. Lucas archives are very flimsy on the C105, just the original picture used for the advert and a copy of a Dutch leaflet on the use of the C105 (which I already had) were mentioned. No other refs available.

Cheers,

Rob

email (option): wd16h@telfort.nl

This picture Rob? I can't see any lids?

But now I have it mind to paint my NiFe lids in KG3. Even if it's not right, it's no worse than maroon :relaxed: Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Ron, behind the Gold Block tin.



I'm absolutely convinced of the 'Service Colour' lid now...This is a pre-war RAF Norton that has to be in Blue-Grey. Once again, the lid matches the battery retainer.

AH HA! Now I see them. It's decided. I'm going to spray paint my lids green.

But why on Earth did they bother? Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Its obvious the top is the bit visible to enemy aircraft.

Rob

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk

Has anyone looked into the matter of the regulator box for the NIFE battery set up? I mention this because I bought a large quantity of M.20 spares in the 1970s and amongst this collection was a number of regulator boxes. Most were stamped FADE MCR1 type but one was stamped NIFE MCR1 type. I assumed there must be a difference but never discovered what it was.

It would seem reasonable for those determined to restore their machine to the ultimate degree that if you have fitted a NIFE battery you would match this with a NIFE stamped regulator box even if the internals of both were not original.

email (option): keithchandler@clistandchandler.co.uk

Hi Keith, Rik has talked about the regulators once or twice, there is a picture of his in this old thread.

Rob

http://pub37.bravenet.com/forum/static/show.php?usernum=3155626639&frmid=16&msgid=1444299&cmd=show

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk

Indeed Keith I have 3 bikes with NiFe batteries and I would fit the corresponding regulators in a flash. But every time I go to the NiFe regulator shop....It's shut!!!???:confused: Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Ni-Fe regulators seem to be very scarce in the UK...Probably not surprising as the corresponding batteries seem to have been actively withdrawn from service...They were clearly in use with the BEF up until June 1940, but I can't recall any photos of them in use in the UK after that point. They turn up occasionally in Europe, generally with ex-BEF parts.

I have photos of Ni-Fe MCR1 bases and covers on file dating from 12/1936 through until 10/1939...WD CVCs then seem to have been marked 'Lead-Acid' to differentiate them from at least September 1939 (This is probably the first month that they were fitted to WD motorcycles) up until June 1942.

My December 1939 16H, 'as found' had a June 1937 Ni-Fe base in bronze green, roughly overpainted in KG3, wearing a November '39 dated KG3 cover with a part number that relates to the Lead-Acid type. Presumably it was a field replacement...the question is does that mean that a Ni-Fe battery had been fitted too, or had the Ni-Fe reg been recalibrated ?









The letters had a white infill.

Keith

I wrote a little on the Ni-Fe batteries on my website explaining the difference between the two types of batteries.
Basically an Alkaline battery has 1,2V per cell where the Lead Acid cell produces 2,1V per cell.
Hence the bigger and more heavy Ni-Fe battery as it needed 5 cells instead of 3 cells to produce 6V.

The Chargeing current/voltage profiles are different hence the different CVC boxes.
It was possible to use a Lead Acid CVC on Ni-Fe batteries and vice versa but neither would result in an optimum chargeing of the battery.

Cheers,

Rob

email (option): wd16h@telfort.nl

email (option): keithchandler@clistandchandler.co.uk

email (option): keithchandler@clistandchandler.co.uk

Ha Ha! Yes Keith. But considering what you can see of the regulators on the bikes in question....No one will know the difference anyway. But it would be extremely nice to own a genuine NiFe regulator, if you find you have one surplus to sell.

Regards Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

If I would find a real Ni-Fe CVC I would hate to gut it to put electronics in it so I will just use an ordinary version and add the Ni-Fe marking.
When riding by, nobody will see the difference, and I think honestly 99% of the people have no clue anyway!!!

The battery straps without the side restrictions were indeed the early ones for Ni-Fe. The later ones with fixed side support for the Lead Acid versions.
When replacing the Ni-Fe with a Lead-Acid on an existing MC, they used a seperate/loose side support which can be nicely seen on the wartime instruction video "Army motor cycling".

Cheers

Rob

email (option): wd16h@telfort.nl

Rob, that's my feeling too, which is why my Ni-Fe box is on the shelf.

There may be a difference in the number of coils, but the Lead-Acid type changed over time too.

Nortons and Triumphs with their clip fitting regulators on the frame tubes are probably the only two makes where the base can be clearly seen, especially where the white infill is present.

Engraving would probably be needed to replicate the marking. I can't imagine that any form of letter punch would give the correct depth and profile.

Royal Enfield don't seem to have used the loose cross straps on WD/Cs, but their battery carrier had side projections anyway. They do though seem to have adopted the standard cover with welded-on strap when it became the norm. The 'D' would probably have been the only Ni-Fe period RE.

"The 'D' would probably have been the only Ni-Fe period RE"

Correct Rik! I have one on my WD/D and both my BSA KC10 and WC10. Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

I was lucky to obtain a Nife regulator - bsa type

But after discovering my project bike was produced after it’s discontinuation- I am unsure what to do now - it was another nice feature along with the big battery I had wanted on my bike

Lots of good information in this thread
Br
Job

email (option): jonnyob1@googlemail.com