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Re: BSA is coming back soon

It's very common that journos don't bother to do their research properly these days...

Regarding the 'Indian' BSA my only hope is that they come up with something that at least visually picks up on some BSA styling cues and doesn't just look like a generic modern bike with BSA on the tank...

Really I have limited enthusiasm for this type of 'badge engineering' though, where the product has no real connection to the original company either physically, historically or conceptually...Just take any famous name and attach it to an unrelated bike and you magically get a 'reborn' model...The French engined, foreign built bike that has a 'new or old' identity crisis and is supposedly a 'Brough Superior' is a great example of where it can all end (badly IMO and nowhere near Nottingham)...

There can never be another BSA in my book unless it's at least British owned and designed and built in the UK but realistically that's never going to happen...

Nevertheless, I hope Mahindra come up with a good bike at the end of the day that at least warrants the application of the illustrious name...Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Re: BSA is coming back soon

It's a shame that CCM didn't acquire the BSA name. Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Re: BSA is coming back soon

And what would they do with it ?
Small volume specialist manufacturers never make enough money to cover the costs of acquiring the trade name
Just look at the "Gold SR" Regal could not sell enough of them to make it viable .
And if there was ever a modern bike in the BSA tradition then the SR seres Yamahas would fit the bill perfectly.
I went through about a dozen of them
They were an Australian design / adaption of the XT and were very proular amongst to old British Single riding fraternity
It was very popular down here and apparently sold well o/s but not good enough to maintain production, partially because the target market are not the types to buy a new bike every years and being experienced riders were hot likely to smash their bikes regularly .
Probably for local laws it was downsized in most markets to a 400 so lost the economies of scale that came from using mostly XT internals.
The burning question is would you pay an extra £ 1,000 for CCM based motorcycle with BSA on the side of the tank and an extra 50 kg of weight to have the specialist lightweight parts beefed up to road standards.
And even then it would take 10 years to recoup the cost of the brand name, let alone the interest paid on the money used to acquire the trade mark .
If you are churning out bikes at the rate of 1000 a week then you have a slim chance of actually being paid for the bikes before you have to pay all of your suppliers but in most cases you have paid for everything well before the bike tyres see the bitumen.

The prime reason why nearly every attempt to restart production of old marques have failed is the initatiors just don't have deep enough pockets to fund the operations for long enough to start turning a profit.
If you do not have a 7 figure bank account and an independent income in the high 6 figures then there is no hope unless you can fin 100 or so similar minded enthusiasts willing to work for free for a year or two to get things off the ground then continue to work for less than £ 1 / hr

Re: BSA is coming back soon

Since I was forced to sell my company, CCM is now Indian owned. CCM ended in 1981, after this time it was all badge engineering with one failed project after another.

I suspect, it won't be long before all new motorcycles will be electric.

email (option): pes.sales@btconnect.com

Re: BSA is coming back soon

As far as I know, CCM is still all British?
https://www.ccm-motorcycles.com/about-us/

Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Re: BSA is coming back soon

After BSA engines, CCM used Austrian Rotax engines and then changed to a Suzuki power unit...The engine design and development is where the big money is for any manufacturer considering entering the market...That's why nearly all small manufacturers of these types of bike use an 'off the shelf' engine they can buy in....For example Buell with a Rotax engine, the French engine in the Brough, the Hesketh with its S&S engine, which is also fitted to the Morgan trike...There are a number of examples...

We live in a world market these days and it would be a miracle if any bike were built with parts wholly sourced in the UK...A wonderful dream but no...My own view is that the engine is the 'heart' of the machine and that must be British with rest of the machine at least built in Britain before I'll regard anything as a 'British' bike....Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Re: BSA is coming back soon

I'm not allowed to discus it in public, but the owner is of Indian extraction. He is not a director. We have all the records here and are happy to show anyone who visits. Lots of things happen, that the public is never told about.

email (option): pes.sales@btconnect.com

Re: BSA is coming back soon

CCM are currently using a Husqvarna/BMW engine that was originally used in the Husqvarna TE630...Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Re: BSA is coming back soon

bsa-pic

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Re: BSA is coming back soon

that image popped up about a week after the original announcement So is more likely to be photo shop musing rather than an actual design conciept.
It is a pretty looking bike but it would have to do a lot more than look pretty to reach market success.
And remember the BSA name was stuck on those small off roaders
Brignad & beaver from memory and they were an absolute failure in the market place and that was in the early 90's when prople wer e still riding BSA's as daily transport
Then there was the mopeds whatever their name was, again a total flop
And of course the Gold SR
So that is 3 failures to achieve any market penetration by resorting to using the BSA name
And some where in the back of my mind was an off road monkey bike branded BSA

The rotax powered MAtchless seemed to have a very short market life.
And speaking of Rotax wasn't there a rotax powered Gold Star not all that long ago ?

Re: BSA is coming back soon

Norton may be the proof that you can have multiple failures and still come back to find a place in the market...The key thing is to have a properly funded, well designed product...The Norton rotary had some great features and were quite remarkable bikes to ride compared to anything else, with absolutely no vibration and good performance..I've ridden all the variants more than once...However, it suffered from a chronic lack of development before launch into the market...I consider that the 'American Commando' and the V4 produced by Stuart Garner had exactly the same problems...As for the BSA 'tiddlers' mentioned, cheap and cheerful would be a generous description, they were bound to fail...

I bought a new Harris Matchless (ironically the last one he sold to the public)...It too had some great features and that included the bullet proof and very tuneable Rotax 504 engine...Sadly though, I believe Harris aimed for the non existent market of the 'modern classic'...People who were fans of Matchless wouldn't buy it as it wasn't a 'real' Matchless and modern riders found the concept, styling and performance too conservative...In the UK I know Triumph enthusiasts who wouldn't touch the Hinkley product and even thought the Harris T140 wasn't the real thing...

It's better to forget these people and build something modern that just looks 'retro'...Younger riders don't carry the baggage of history around with them...If they see something that gets great reviews and they like the look of it they'll buy it...

The proof of that is the new Royal Enfield twin...With that bike they appear to have struck that happy balance...It's the top selling bike in its class in the UK and I think half the people that own them (at least) have nothing more than a sketchy knowledge of, or enthusiasm for, the original Redditch Enfields...

Mahindra have the money to do the job with a new 'BSA' and currently there's plenty of enthusiasm for retro bikes...They just need to come up with the right product and that's the hard part...Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Re: BSA is coming back soon

How big is the market for this type of bike overall? I'm aware of the new Matchless, but outside the UK Royal Enfield have pretty much had the Brand New Old Pommy Bike market to themselves. Would the market sustain multiple entries?

Re: BSA is coming back soon

I think it's more about the size of the 'retro style' market overall, which is flourishing currently...Most manufacturers have models in this class and many riders are favouring them over the full 'bells and whistles' models which are becoming too costly and too complicated for many...Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Re: BSA is coming back soon

Well I doubt you would find any one here who would not agree that the modern motorcycle has just become too big too fast too cumbersome & too complicated.
Then again my day used to say that a foot gear change ruined motorcycling .
However the young riders I haave had contact just want what goes the fastest that they are allowed to ride.
I have guided a couple of the L & P rides through the local area that I have bumped into on one of the old bikes and none of them are interested in a bike that can not do the road legal 110kph with ease .
They even have difficulty understanding how I can stay out of trouble without having enough Hp to get me out of trouble.
The idea tha Hp is what gets you into trouble in the first place is totally foreign to them ( shows little has changed there since I was 14 ).
None of them could do any job more complicated than tightening the rear chains and few seem interested in learning any more mechanical skills so I could not see any of them going for a BSA and none of them would have any idea what a BSA was.
None of them recognised the M20 , B40 or B2 and if you mention BSA once made 1/4 of all motorcycles 125cc & over they go strait to their phones and ask why are they only making car wheels now .
Things might be different in the UK.
Perhaps things over there have gotten so bad there is a yearing for the "good old days ) post WWII in what ever form the 20's think they took.

Re: BSA is coming back soon

I once had a fellow motorcyclist approach me & say "BSA, that's an old German bike isn't it?" I thought that being an ex military machine the bike may've been insulted, but she started & off we chuffed.
Mind you, the bike is on record as getting quite persnickety on a couple of December 7s.

Re: BSA is coming back soon

As I noted, younger riders don't share the baggage regarding manufacturers that we all carry round...I have little detailed knowledge of the bike scene in Australia but in the UK we have 'hipsters'...That group is largely populated by younger riders who definitely don't seem to have a 'power' obsession at all and customise and ride everything from small Hondas through to Harleys but with few Japanese sports bikes in the mix...Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Re: BSA is coming back soon

The new Gold Star! Ron
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f52zuJSesiM

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Re: BSA is coming back soon

Wow!...They have really picked up on the BSA look in many ways...It's not possible to determine fit, finish and overall specification as it stands and there's still the question of price and whether that's exactly what gets into production...

However, as they've gone with a large single and I favour big singles (I'm currently building a 640cc B33 to go with the 600cc Goldie and the 720cc M20), I'd certainly take a close look at that as a modern runabout to compliment my other Beezas...Based on first impressions I'm looking forward to how it all works out...Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Re: BSA is coming back soon

Does look very appealing to my eye
And yes they have picked up on a lot of the old design features
Interesting they say it is a low reving engine so it will be really interesting to see the all important torque curve .
As is not Aust compliant with those blinkers being too close together and probably too low at the back
But very easy on the eye in chrome or black, not fussed with the other colours.
Definately not what I was expecting so they are marketing directly to our generation, dangerous thing to do .
Doubt we will see any down here for several years
And I really would like to hear the exhaust note
We have limits at around 85 Dba now days for new motorcycles.
But the killer is the drive by test which orf course catches all of the engine noise as well which makes it really hard for air cooled engines.

Re: BSA is coming back soon

what's the chance of getting one registered in Germany, post Brexit? :white_frowning_face:
Took a month and a customs declaration for a pack of earl grey to reach me from Blighty recently!

Re: BSA is coming back soon

I expect some of the engine design will be Jawa based as they also bought some rights to them. Interestingly it seems they didn't buy all the rights to BSA, it's only a 100 year lease.

email (option): pes.sales@btconnect.com

Re: BSA is coming back soon

Launch at the NEC. Ron
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yg3jBQuwes8

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Re: BSA is coming back soon

I think it basically looks good...It's a shame they didn't come up with a nicer looking/less obtrusive radiator...The Triumph has it between the frame down tubes and it looks a lot neater and more discreet...A little on the heavy side as well at 469lbs.'wet'..(213 kilos)....It seems motorcycle manufacturers have universally forgotten the benefits of light weight...My 1970 T120R Bonneville was just under 400lbs...

Nevertheless, I still like it at first look...What price?.. That is the important question that remains unanswered...Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Re: BSA is coming back soon

So far I've heard a vague rumor of between £5000-£6000. Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Re: BSA is coming back soon

On further investigation, the prices guessed at will be more than a 650 RE twin and more like that of a Kawasaki W800 and the Triumph Street Twin. So I'd say more like £8000. Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Re: BSA is coming back soon

With the latest version of the now well established RE Interceptor at £6850 (base models about £6400) and the 900cc Triumph Street Twin at £8600, I think they'll struggle if it's £8000....Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Re: BSA is coming back soon

Agreed about that bloody radiator. I'd like to see this bike compete in the same area as RE & prices would need to be similar. I hope it doesn't end up an overly expensive boutique machine. The idea of a 650cc ohc single certainly has its attractions.
Is there any talk of eventually expanding the range with other bikes? This might give an indication of where the company wants to head.

Re: BSA is coming back soon

great looking bike. i hope it does come to Australia..no matter what the price is, probably wont be as much as ive spent on my m20..lol

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfMS-S4_G6c&ab_channel=TheMissendenFlyer

email (option): wandins@bigpond.net.au

Re: BSA is coming back soon

' probably wont be as much as I've spent on my m20..'

:laughing: :laughing: ...Quite, all of my BSAs have cost as much or more than the new one is likely to be...Building the Goldie was measurably the wrong side of £10,000 and the B33 'special' I'm building now will cost nearly as much due to the substantially upgraded specification...On the other hand, they'll probably return more of their cost than any new bike when the time to sell comes around, which helps to convince me I know what I'm doing:stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye: ...Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Re: BSA is coming back soon

I was once told that the definition of an enthusiast is a person who spends more on their bike than it's actually worth. So I must be an enthusiast.

Re: BSA is coming back soon

There was a point where I started to look at my bikes and what I would or wouldn't build based on current or future values...I guess I read too many classic bike magazines...

Then I remembered that I didn't used to think like that.. The reason I had old bikes was because I liked building and riding them, not because of what they're worth now or later...

Once I got my head straight again I carried on building whatever took my fancy, however illogical and irrespective of the balance sheet...I'm now poorer but feel I have a more healthy attitude again and I can blow all my money on things like this:laughing: .....Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

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