Browsing the internet yesterday I made the disturbing (IMO) discovery that the Indians are now making cam followers and guides for B and M Series engines...Cam followers are a very highly stressed part and the consequences of the failure of one of these at speed is potentially serious...
These parts can be added to a growing list of engine and gearbox components produced in that part of the world that are classed as high stress precision components and therefore it is imperative they are correctly manufactured...
There is little to suggest that production methods in India have undergone any kind of revision and previous evidence indicates that serious defects in the material specification, production tolerances and methods and quality control are both endemic and entirely likely...
To make matters worse, the cavalier approach taken by the sellers of many of these products means that the final decision about what is a good part and what isn't rests, in the end, with the purchaser...
Ultimately, these parts will make their way into engines etc. and in the future we may be buying them without realising it when we buy a bike...Personally I'd rather not dwell on that possibility for too long...
However, For anyone buying parts themselves I would suggest some very careful thought be given to this matter when considering replacements...Perhaps your well being and ultimately your life may depend on it....Ian
email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com
I'm doing my best to address this Ian, but we really could do with some more staff.
email (option): pes.sales@btconnect.com
Luckily- most engine components like these are available & of original manufacture
They can be bought here in U.K. be it from a decreasing number of outlets I see of late - but with patience & perseverance you can find most items
From what I can make out & my recent selling experiences - is that some components such as these are not considered in an engine build - not as high profile as valves, guides perhaps or a rebore
It seems many being rebuilt are not being considered for higher mileage - maybe shorter trips or events etc - what ever suits the rider
Like you - I have had some parts remanufactured and to high quality standards - they will fit & operate like originals - but some items sell more quickly than others & the rest can sit about for ages
Finding someone interested enough & with the skills to produce these items has become more difficult of late & with increased raw materials costs sky rocketing such as steel, by the time a small batch is made - it can become a difficult sell due to price
I have decided that the next batch of parts I am requesting to be made will be just to cover my own requirements & a couple left over - it’s just not worth it any more
Just my thoughts
Jo’b
email (option): jonnyob1@googlemail.com
Hi Mark,
What can I do to help you? I'm in the states as you know. But as an ex aerospace designer
I have a lot of contacts. I live in Hastings, MI, and can get piston rings made right here!
Plus, there is an awful lot of automotive parts manufacturing in my state. (Michigan)
email (option): britool51@hotmail.com
Thanks Robb,
Pistons and rings no problem, we have them custom made in the states. The only problem we have is a lack of understanding of English!
I will do the M20 and M21's soon.
Most of what we make is in very small numbers, jobbing shops generally don't want to do it. If they do it will be made wrong and cost more than many would pay for it. We have had to teach basic engineering skills to some very prestigious companies. This week I'm going to have to teach basic corrosion avoidance and quenching failures to a heat treatment company!
The only way most of this stuff is viable is to have zero rejection on inspection. That said it does happen :( We just had to scrap a lot of work due to bad handling whilst being anodised. I have a horrible feeling that might end up in court. Because we are a small company I guess they think we'll roll over and take it.
I don't understand why people don't take pride in their work. They think they get paid for turning up at work.
We are looking into setting up a training school, but first we have to expand the building.
email (option): pes.sales@btconnect.com
Don't know what it is like in the UK but getting machining training down here in Oz is impossible.
Shane bought a big lathe ( 6 foot bed & 14" swing ) with a big face plate
We Are looking to set it up to grind drums in rims by mounting the entire wheel.
He also bought a big mill ( Adcock Shippley No 19 ) that apparently can cut a 2" wide x 1" deep trench in a single pass ( 20Hp motor )
We were intending using this to bore cylinders as between us there are a lot of rusty junkpiles waiting to become running motorcycles .
So I popped into TAFE to see if I could sign up to a machining course
Two problems
1) They only take apprentices on even if we are willing to pay
2) they no longer teach manual milling or manual lathe work
All CAD / COM , auto machining water jets & the type of gear you bought a while back.
SO we thought we would try Adult Education
Nope no machining courses at all but they did know some consultants who do on site work at $ 30 / hr + traveling time for 4 hour sessions provided we could organise proper insurance for him & ourselves .
So we had lined up a master machinist who was long time retired but unfortunately he died .
Still looking for a course somewhere while I mutilate metal on my 4" Hafco .
I get a lot of stuff from Tin-man Technologies & you can not even book for one of Kent's metal work courses any more .
The RROC used to do workshop weekends down @ Brians home in Canberra .
You would book in and if there was space turn up & work on some ones roller.
After you had been to several you could book your own car in to get a specific job done.
People travelled from as far away as Brisbane & Adelaide
SO I would be amazed if there was not sufficient demand to make week end workshop courses a viable proposition.
There are many good tutorials covering machining processes and methods on 'you tube'...Also, old books on 'workshop theory and practice' explaining the principles and practices in detail...These sort of books can be found cheaply in bookshops etc. as demand for them is now generally low...
The biggest hurdle for most people is finding a suitable machine for the home workshop with all the related tooling and measuring equipment...I have a Harrison 300 lathe and a small Austrian milling machine for home use and they have the capacity to do most motorcycle related jobs to the required degree of accuracy..I'm also fortunate to have access to a very well equipped Brigeport mill via a friend who lives locally...I can 'farm out' anything beyond that...The fact is you can never be set up to do everything...
Many model engineers produce amazing results with a Myford lathe and the associated attachments, though these do have size and power limitations and personally I prefer something with more capacity...
However, if approached with a degree of common sense and the necessary research and patience it is entirely possible to become proficient on a 'self taught' basis if no help is readily available...I've met many people who have done this and frankly, I can only admire them for the results they have achieved from a 'standing start'...It's really quite easy for me to take for granted the benefits I got from traditional 5 year apprenticeship and a career in engineering....
Marks problem is rather different, he is talking about a commercial operation with current equipment and practices most forum members will never be exposed to...Ian
email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com
There is a danger in utube guides/instructions, most have done it once and must now be an expert. As for automated machines they are good if you know what you are doing. They might be fast at making things, but you won't believe at how fast they can destroy stuff or themselves.
Recalibration after a simple "bump" can cost up to £1000.00 if you are lucky. Then there is down time waiting for the service engineer. The younger generation of these don't seem to be up to the job either.
In my opinion learning manual machining is priceless. Each metal has a "feel" when your cutting it. Learning about tool cutting and sharpening is just as important. Who can successfully sharpen a drill be to cut on size now by hand? When I could see, I could just about do a 1mm bit. I worked with a ma who could sharpen drills to cut thin sheet metal and leave a round hole and not snatch as it passed through. I can't :(
Cost is another problem with training manual machining, let alone finding teachers with the skill to teach the art. Modern robotic machines can be programmed and simulated offline. Much cheaper and not dangerous. Speeds and feed taken form tool manufactures data. If your lucky the job might even work.
From manual experience you know how hard you can push a tool or machine. This can give you an edge over someone with no practical experience.
It used to be after 5 years training you could claim to be semi-skilled. Much longer to be time served. Six months crash course and your an expert now!
If you are going to buy a lathe, make sure it has at least 500mm between centres. Any smaller, you'll regret it.
Mills need to be a good size too, say 1000mm bed minimum. Cheap mills bend when you try to apply a decent cut, though they can still be a good drill.
Carbide tools are too fragile for learning manual machining. High speed steel tools are better if sharpened correctly. Get a bench grinder and a wheel dresser. Never shape or debur metal with it. This should be a sin punishable by death! some will understand this.
Make friends with a retired machinist from a smaller jobbing shop who has done it all. Warning they may not have social skills as being good requires avoiding distractions such as people ;)
email (option): pes.sales@btconnect.com
It used to be one of Gerry Bristoe's pet hates "machined from billet" as if that was some sort of guarantee of high quality.
Gerry was an ex-metallurgist & he & I became very close email friends after I took another arm chair expert to town about the "Poxy pot metal" used in Amal carbs.
I have seen more "machined from solid" parts fail in use that I ever want to because the monkey working the machine had no idea about grain orientation & strength , let alone materials selection .
We did get the abridged operators manual for the Adcock & Shippley mill, all 450 pages of it from an specialist old machine manual vendor but of course it is written to be read by a UK trained master machinist not a wanna be motorcycle parts maker who learned how to run a lathe & shaper back in high school then never touched one again till he was old enough to draw a pension.
Add to that no instructions for the powered rotary table or the gearing on the optional powered knee .
Videos are fine but there is a world of difference between watching one of those & having some one next to you telling you to turn this wheel 15 degrees before you pull that lever and mounting the mac above the lathe is not all that easy .
But if nothing else I have saved a fortune by making bespoke spacing bushes for ride on mower idler pulleys & am now tackling a full set of pivot pins for 1962 back hoe .
Gents, just to put things in perpective...
On the right a single lobe Ariel camshaft recently made in the UK by Newman Cams.
On the left a original camshaft with camwheel fitted.
Compare the position that the alloy oil pump drive block has to the lines in the background .
The excenter has been ground in a off straight angle to the rest of the cam.
This cam has been returned about a year ago, no progress until date.
You don't need to go all the way to India to get wrongly made parts.
email (option): info@wetblast.nl
Vincent, out of interest, is the lobe that drives the oil pump block, still parallel to the cam shaft? Please don't tell me it's been machined out of true!! Ron
email (option): ronpier@talk21.com
Yes Ron, it is out of line with the rest of the camshaft.
A few years ago the AOMCC had a batch of (I think) 10 VCH profile cams made by Newman Cams.
(as a aside; VCH is a early fifties competition model with a cam that is suitable for road work, not as harsh as the later HS Mk1 cam which needs a open exhaust pipe)
I found out that the pump drive was off line when I hand cranked the engine when still on the bench.
What happens when the alloy drive block wobbles like this is that it pushes the oil pump plungers outward .
Of course, as the block is alloy it will wear away....but that's not how it is supposed to work !
I received a second cam (from the AOMCC) and it had the same problem.
So I returned them both to the club.
I know that the cam is now (since several months) at Newman, but did not hear about it since.
picture shows the alloy drive block after only a few hand cranked revolutions.
email (option): info@wetblast.nl
In being critical of 'precision' products from India I wasn't by inference suggesting there weren't problems with parts sourced elsewhere..There are poor quality products everywhere...In fact I am currently making rectifications to both the tolerances and some design features of a hub/ brake drum assembly that was manufactured in the UK and cost me £277!...
Personally, whilst I prefer to buy a British product purely to support companies based here I don't really mind where anything is manufactured as long as it's done correctly...
Irrespective of any comparisons, I was just pointing out that the use of Indian made, high stress engine components should be approached with extreme caution IMO as I feel there is an inherent and real risk. I wouldn't use them myself...Ian
email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com
I had a batch of cams made by newmans about 20 years ago. They ignored my drawings and notes and changed the material spec and heat treatment. I had to rebuild about half a dozen engines out of my pocket. Being unable to take them to court as I was at the point of bankruptcy i just had to live with it. You would think after this time they would have improved. This is why I make my own cams now.
They still use my profiles and sell them as their own!
email (option): pes.sales@btconnect.com
Sigh..
If I ever get my cam back I suspect nothing will have been done to it.
but, I thought of 2 solutions;
1 To give the alloy block a curve on both 'side' surfaces so it can wobble about, surfaces where the plungers bear on are not affected in that way...(entering serious bodge country!)
or
2 to grind the crooked excenter in line to a smaller diameter and make a new alloy block with a smaller hole. but I think the Ariel factory (and Triumph - Val Page ) designed this ex-center in this size for a reason.
any thoughts?
Perhaps this off line ex-center happened when the camshaft was in the hardening process?
could that be? something that is off center maybe 'pulls' to one side ?
What man has made man can make again.......sometimes.
email (option): info@wetblast.nl
I've used a lot of Newmans Gold Star cams in both standard and tuned engines and had no problems...In fact I'm waiting for delivery of some scrambles cams at the moment..They also made a very nice job of a cam for a rigid A7 machined from a modified A65 spec. blank...
Regarding the Ariel cam there seems to have been a number of failures before it got to you...Firstly Newmans should have picked up the problem during normal QC checks...Secondly the Ariel club aren't bothering to check incoming parts before sending them out to club members...Twice in your case...Having received a defective one back it's surprising they didn't check the next one before sending it to you...
From your photo it's not possible to see how offset or what diameter the pump block peg is...However, the cam will only be case hardened so you could grind off the peg, drill and tap the end of the shaft in line with its axis and screw in a threaded replacement peg...Ian
email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com
Ian, I thought you were riding around on an India made Enfield, doesn't that have Indian made engine components?
Rob
email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk
A few...:laughing: ...What your suggesting though is that the quality standards of a motorcycle company that produces 625,000 motorcycles a year from a modern factory are the same as the company making girder forks up a back alley somewhere...An unfair comparison really...
To date I've found the Indian Enfield to be a well made and serviceable product and on that basis I don't have a problem with where it came from...Ian
email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com
Guys, these people manufacture valves and guides in excellent quality, and are the suppliers of most of the antique parts stores in Europe.
I think you might want to contact them and hear if they can help, maybe if there is a sufficient quantity on order, they will produce.
Anyway, I have come across people who are hospitable and willing to help (I purchased from them the valves & guides for my BMW R51/3).
I know someone who purchased from them an item that does not appear in their catalog, but they made an effort, searched and found something matching for his issue.
https://www.intervalves-technologies.com/
email (option): michasteinmann@gmail.com
Gents
Just a tip:
Drilling a round hole in thin sheet is made easy by the application of a piece of cloth between drill and sheet.
Learned this trick at the Fokker Aircraft basic training 40+ year ago. No more triangular holes!
Cheers,
Rob
email (option): wd16h@telfort.nl
Trevor, the CNC courses would most likely meet you needs. They still have to cover the basics of tool / work speed and feed and material differences for those. In fact I think that has to be more of a focus because your not being taught about "feel" and judgement. Also depends who the tutor is, ie how were they taught? Worth poking that a bit more maybe with the local TAFE? I money guessing here based on the youngsters at my communal workshop, ie enonly way I get a workshop :) envious of the machinery you've got the space for :)
email (option): dickie.bobbie@hotmail.co.uk
I've just seen Indian-made WM20 gearbox outer covers. Around £200 with shipping. Has anyone sampled Royal Crusaders products?
email (option): cmmacd @hotmail.co.uk