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Motorcycle details painting and chrome plating

Hi everyone
I'm about to repaint my BSA, but I have doubts about bolts and components.
I wanted to do it as it was when they came out of the factory, they told me that the bolts were matt chrome.
Ok, but not all bolts were chrome; from the photos I saw that the large bolts of the wheel hubs were painted, was it possible that part of the bolts was painted and another chrome part? Then I have other doubts about other details. For example, were the screws on the gearbox cover chrome?
The knobs instead, brake, clutch, advance etc ... have been left in brass or opaque chrome, from the photos I can not understand
I have big doubts and I don't want to make mistakes, what can I do?

I enclose a photo of a reference motorcycle

https://imgur.com/a/kzaZMJE

Thank you all for your help

email (option): bongiovanni1988@libero.it

Re: Motorcycle details painting and chrome plating

On a Wm20 nothing was chromed.
Fasteners were either painted or cadmium plated.
Now days the closest to cad is the zincalume finish.

If it is a civilian model then again all fasteners were cad except the handle bar bolts, the lever pivot bolts the for top nut & the gearchange bolt only if it has a chromed lever.

email (option): bsansw1@tpg.com.au

Re: Motorcycle details painting and chrome plating

It depends on the year, month and probably day it left the factory. Dull chrome was used for the exhaust, control levers and other odd bits early in the war, Cadmium plate was used on fasteners and other odd bits, this use also became less as time went on.

Rob

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk

Re: Motorcycle details painting and chrome plating

Hi, thanks for the answers.
I am increasingly confused. I hope someone can solve this problem because I am restoring my bike scrupulously and I don't want to make trivial mistakes on these final details.
My bike is military and was born at the end of 1944.
Some time ago on the forum they told me that the bolts were finished in a chemical bath or finished with matt satin chrome. At this point I ask you experts what I have to do.
I have these main doubts about how to refine the parts (I'm going to have the bike painted very quickly).
- Control levers (brake, clutch, air, advance, etc.)
- Fuel tank cap and oil tank cap
- Raised bolts for the rider's saddle
- various bolts (fixing of the bag holder frame, object holder, front plate where the horn is also fixed, etc.)
- wheel hub bolts
- Joint for side stand

I thank anyone who can help me
Many thanks

PS, there are no documents of the time or references on how these elements are finished by the factory?

Thank you
regards

email (option): bongiovanni1988@libero.it

Re: Motorcycle details painting and chrome plating

There is very little written information regarding these finish's, although one or two of the 1940 period spare parts lists do state this information, by the time a particular contract was finished some savings in valuable resources would have already begun.

If your machine is late 1944 you can probably discount the Chrome and probably some of the Cadmium too.

Rob

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk

Re: Motorcycle details painting and chrome plating

Ok ... but then, how were these parts made?
In particular: the control levers, the fuel tank cap and the oil tank cap (which are the most striking parts, and I would not make mistakes).
And the bolts? if they weren't with cadmium or chromium, were they galvanized with zinc or burnished?

Thank you

email (option): bongiovanni1988@libero.it

Re: Motorcycle details painting and chrome plating

I could give you chapter and verse on Nortons but unfortunately that doesn't help here.

Looking at studio photographs of WM20s from early to late, it really looks to me as if the forks were partially assembled and painted as a unit...The headlamp mount bolts always seem to be painted and I agree that the wheel nuts look to be too...Clearly it wasn't painted with the wheel in place so it's difficult to understand why they would have done that, especially as the first application of a tool would have removed the paint anyway. Was it something to do with how the forks were stored prior to assembly ?

New Old Stock filler caps always seem to be cadmium plated...any steel control levers would have been too, as rust protection, but by the end of the war brass parts were being left unpolished and unplated. It is very difficult to put exact dates on this though.

Re: Motorcycle details painting and chrome plating

These machines only had a 3 year guarantee and the Army policy was to rebuild all vehicles after 3 years with new serial numbers issued, obviously that didn't always happen but the point is they weren't concerned about long term protection. It would seen that a black coloured chemical rust proofing may have been used on some fixings, others were painted.

The Welbike has always puzzled me, it was completely painted except for the tyres, seat cover and cables, so parts and assemblies must have been painted before the wheels went in, did they just daub some paint on the wheel nuts afterwards?

Rob

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk

Re: Motorcycle details painting and chrome plating

Mauro, finishing the small parts you mention has been a frequent topic on this site. I do my own cadmium plating, which may not be available where you live, and have replated all the OEM fasteners. I have the benefit of 200 lbs of old BSC and Whitworth hardware I purchased some years ago, since some of my originals were beyond repair. Search this site under my name in the search box and look at the discussions and photos.

Bear in mind that parts were freely mixed and matched at the REME service depots under the exigencies of wartime.

Jeff

email (option): jjbandoo@aol.com

Re: Motorcycle details painting and chrome plating

All very interesting.
Then I could leave all the levers in raw brass, but the problem is that (I don't know why), but the supports of the levers and the arches of the manettini are in gray metal (perhaps cadmium-plated?). This is how they suck, or all the brass or all the cadmium.

I was told that the satin chrome finish remains very similar to cadmium plating. is it true or not?
If so I can have the whole satin chrome finish. What do you think?

For fuel and oil caps it is also a problem if they were cadmium, and today cadmium is no longer possible, I presume to be forced to do so in satin chrome.
Sometimes the caps were painted or not? if so I could paint them like the bike ...

Thanks again for the help.

email (option): bongiovanni1988@libero.it

Re: Motorcycle details painting and chrome plating

Studying pictures of newly finished later production bikes is probably the only way to decipher it. These days, cad plating is often done by tumbling the fittings in bulk, whereas chrome parts are hung separately.If the same process was used back then? I guess the nuts and bolts were cad plated (certainly some early bikes had mat chrome fixings) and larger items were either chromed or cad plated until economies dictated otherwise. Ron

BSA-Australia-2
VokesBSA
W4
W3

W1

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Re: Motorcycle details painting and chrome plating

Ok ... it seems a little clearer to me.
Assuming that the control levers, bolts and fuel filler caps are satin chrome or cadmium-plated, what can I do now?
Cadmium can no longer be used ... Can I make everything in satin chrome? is the visual effect similar? what can I do to make a restoration as faithful as possible?

thank you
regards

email (option): bongiovanni1988@libero.it

Re: Motorcycle details painting and chrome plating

To my knowledge, what is now referred to as 'satin chrome' was not used in the 1930s / 1940s...The plating is usually referred to as 'dull chrome' and it is much less shiny than the brushed finish that most modern platers refer to as 'satin'.

The nearest easily available finish to cadmium is electro-plated zinc but it doesn't provide the same level of protection which is why cadmium is still used for defence and aviation applications...the problem in Europe at least is finding somewhere that will deal with a small quantity from an individual customer...

Re: Motorcycle details painting and chrome plating

Hi Mauro, to get the same visual effects as the cadmium you could 'tin' the parts:

Below, cap is tinned, wing is in original cadmium:

IMG-6997

Combination lever is cadmium NOS but exhaust lever was missing so I tinned a brass one, you can't see the difference.

IMG-6999

The tin is quite tough and think it will also give good longer term protection, especially when kept greasy.

Re: Motorcycle details painting and chrome plating

Michiel W
Hi Mauro, to get the same visual effects as the cadmium you could 'tin' the parts:

Below, cap is tinned, wing is in original cadmium:



Combination lever is cadmium NOS but exhaust lever was missing so I tinned a brass one, you can't see the difference.



The tin is quite tough and think it will also give good longer term protection, especially when kept greasy.
Can you tell Michiel what is the process of tinning a brass lever?
I really like the visual effect, I could do it all this way if I find a place where they do it for me.

thanks

email (option): bongiovanni1988@libero.it

Re: Motorcycle details painting and chrome plating

I've tinned a few oil/petrol pipes before with solder, but haven't really mastered it properly yet. Still would like to get it right!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tinning

Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Re: Motorcycle details painting and chrome plating

Has anyone tried Copy Cad from Caswell Plating? I am guessing its just zinc with a dull passivate.

Great tip about tinning.

As an aside regarding finishes, my first bike was an M21 bought dismantled from a local breakers.
When a bloke at work heard I was rebuilding it he told me I could have his old military M20 he'd left at the old factory down the road. I liked to look of the girder forks and had took thme off the M20, leaving the rest for the scrap man.
I chrome plated the complete fork assembly, the petroltank, and oil tank and primary cases. I could have cad plated the fasteners but used zinc and chrome.

Moral: don't let 16 year old metal finishers build bikes unsupervised!

Re: Motorcycle details painting and chrome plating

I tried the "copy cad" kit some years ago, some parts came out OK others not so, but I probably wasn't regulating the temperature evenly enough so in the end I gave up with it.

I suspect if you do everything perfectly it would give you a reasonable layer of plating, but it is a zink alloy not cadmium.

Rob

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk

Re: Motorcycle details painting and chrome plating

I asked, and a company near me suggested me to make a nickel plating which, according to them, is very similar to a visual effect for cadmium.
In your experience, is this thing true? Between:
Matt chrome
tinning
nickel
Which process is aesthetically closer to cadmium and at the same time able to resist wear?

Thanks as always for the help

email (option): bongiovanni1988@libero.it

Re: Motorcycle details painting and chrome plating

Shiny Nickel was used on levers before chrome, its a bit more yellowy, Is there a dull nickel?

Rob

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk

Re: Motorcycle details painting and chrome plating

Yes there is a dull nickel. In my day it was nothing special, usually used under bright nickel before the chrome was flashed over it.

Re: Motorcycle details painting and chrome plating

But from what the guy I talked to told me, I guess ...
He offered me a matte nickel as a treatment ... I should ask him for a sample of worked metal to better evaluate it in view.
But if it is more yellow, I assume it is more similar to cadmium than to chromium opaque. Or am I wrong?

Would it be better than stagnating then?

email (option): bongiovanni1988@libero.it

Re: Motorcycle details painting and chrome plating

I have tinned the above parts in the flame, first clean/blast, put flux all over, heat the part in the flame, melt tin on it and spread it over the part with a cloth.

Brass and copper 'tins' very well in my experience, steel can be a little more tricky

Just tried my tinbath for the first time, dipping seems to work also: if the tin is hot enough the surplus will just run of the part

IMG-7035

But the galvanic process should also work with tin, maybe the DIY kits also??

BR Michiel

Re: Motorcycle details painting and chrome plating

I came across this page in the 1948 partslist:

005

In combination with the 1940 military partslist all the finish's for that year can be found out:

017

So the levers on the handlebar have suffix /2 - Dull chrome, [and not cadmium which i always thought it was]

Also Filler caps are /2 Dull chrome not cadmium

And Lamp bracket bolt is indeed painted, has /11 Khaki Green No 3 Gas proof

It is all there on Henks DVD! :grinning: BR Michiel

Re: Motorcycle details painting and chrome plating

I think this component proves that there was a gradual evolution of finishes as the war went on.

The 1940 spares list gives it a "/1" code for cadmium plate, this example seems to be in the "/6" Rustproof black finish.

There are some post war manufactured spare parts which were finished in black but I don't think that is the case with this part which was made obsolete in 1943 when the horn was moved from under the seat to the front of the engine.

So the early 1940 spares lists can't be relied on to give finishes for later machines.

Rob

sad-bolt

sad-bolt-2

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk

Re: Motorcycle details painting and chrome plating

Interesting

Re: Motorcycle details painting and chrome plating

"So the early 1940 spares lists can't be relied on to give finishes for later machines."

No copy's left of the later war partslists?? Or were they never issued?

Re: Motorcycle details painting and chrome plating

Later contract parts list exist but they don't give the finish code after the part number.

So the change in the spare parts lists is contract C7287 up to frame WM20 42000 does give the codes, contract C9310 Frame WM20 44213 on doesn't.

But the spare parts lists aren't always correct in any case, I understand they are often printed at the beginning of a contract and therefore changes can be made before the last machine is delivered.

Rob

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk

Re: Motorcycle details painting and chrome plating

The black 'rustproof' finish only remains rust proof if it is regularly oiled...and that would apply equally to 'no finish' as well I would have thought!..:laughing:

I'm fortunate in that my local plater does do tin plating and coincidentally I was looking at the finish just the other day with a view to trying it...If parts are heated for tinning in the home workshop ensure that any previously heat treated parts are not taken to a temperature that will affect the hardness..(clutch operating arm for example)...

Dull nickel isn't a bad finish but is not quite as white/grey as cadmium plating...However, if the finishes were not mixed on the same bike it would pass muster as a substitute I would have thought...The key thing is to get one part plated first as a sample so you can make your own decision before committing....

At the risk of being dragged round a field behind a 100% original M20 I favour bead blasted stainless steel as a cadmium substitute where ever its use is practical...and it's a permanent solution!..No good for the purists of course but then alternative plated finishes to the ones original employed aren't really much different..(though you do retain the original part)..Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Re: Motorcycle details painting and chrome plating

I imagine "Black Rust Proof" is a similar chemical finish given to a Bren gun, anywhere they get rubbed or scratched they do go rusty if you don't clean and oil them, but as its a soldiers main responsibility to look after the bit of equipment he is issued it was quite possible, its the Artillery crews that I don't envy, trying to keep the burnished steel breech mechanism clean on a 25pdr in the cold winter of 1944 in muddy N W Europe can't have been easy.

Rob

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk

Re: Motorcycle details painting and chrome plating

Very interesting

Re: Motorcycle details painting and chrome plating

The easiest & best way to "tin" anything and in particular is to use panel butter.
Apparently Eastwoods now call it "tin butter"
It is simply tin oxide in a reducing flux
The flux cleans the surface then reduces any oxides on the surface to what ever metal it is made of then reduces the tin oxide to pure tin which bonds to the very clean surface.
It is what you would coat a car body with to ensure the lead being wiped on adhered .
For tinning , you simply clean the part, paint on the butter then heat with a torch till the flux dribbles off by which time there will be a coating of tin over the entire surface which is both physically & chemically bonded to the base metal.

This is the Eastwoods product but you should be able to get a similar product locally
https://www.eastwood.com/ew-tinning-butter-1-lb-jar.html

email (option): bsansw1@tpg.com.au

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