Aloha everyone,
I have unfortunately found that my -47 M21 wet sumps quite heavily when left unattended for some time. To the point where quite a bit of the engine oil ends up in the primary drive. Good to know the chain is oiled properly! ;D
I know I have read here about what to do in order to sort this problem out, but I can't remember exactly. Any advice on the topic would be by me appreciated.
Best regards,
Simon
Simon the first and easiest thing to check is the little hex plug at the bottom of the timing case (just peeping out behind my gear lever here). Remove the plug and there is a light spring holding a steel ball against its seat. Clean it all out by squirting WD40 or solvent and air line (gently). Probably time to fit a new ball and spring for the sake of 3-4 Euros. The trick when assembling (even if you use your old parts) is to give the ball a light tap with a small hammer and thin drift, to recreate a fresh seat for the ball. Ron
email (option): ronpier@talk21.com
I've arranged to take a NOS pump body and drive end plate to a local CNC equipped workshop to get some prices for the remanufacture of those parts...
I'll post on the forum when I have some results...Ian
email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com
Ian, will you have them remanufactured in steel, then ?
That's what I was thinking...Ian
email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com
Thanks Ron, that's what I was remembering vaguely! I'll try that for a start.
Ian, I'll keep an eye out for when they come along!
/simon
I have an ABSAF one on one of my bikes they are made of aluminium.
How much was it and when did you buy it?....Ian
email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com
Did what Ron recommended tonight and took the spring and ball-valve apart.
I tried to inspect the ball visually to see if there was any damage to it but it was hard to tell with all the refections in the shiny metal and so on. So I decided to inspect it with the most sensitive part of my body (no not that one!), I put it in my mouth and sure enough I could feel some ridges and irregularities on it.
I'll be ordering a new one (and a spring) first thing in the morning.
good night,
sim00n
As mentioned before, the wear will mostly be inside, at the aluminium seat, and on the spring. The ball itself is hardened steel. While ordering, would be good to also order the check valve inside the oil pump (also a ball and a spring).
I remember using a brass rod and hitting the steel ball quiet hard into its seat, then making sure it will fall out again, to know that it is not stucked inside.
email (option): michaelsteinmann@gmail.com
Ian, I purchased it in November '14 and it cost €445.04. They claim it to be a high capacity pump, it dose not have the ball valve in it. I almost bought one from a Gold Star specialist who's were made out of meehanite but he was such a cantankerous old tosser I didn't bother.
I have a ABSAF pump on an M21 with Ian's 712cc piston fitted.
The difference between my WM20s with the original pump and the ABSAF pump
Is very noticeable, when looking at the oil tank return pipe,
But I am not sure if it makes any difference as to the engine's life,
Or just an overkill...
Noam.
The difference between my WM20s with the original pump and the ABSAF pump
Is very noticeable, when looking at the oil tank return pipe,
But I am not sure if it makes any difference as to the engine's life,
Or just an overkill...
Noam.
/simon
Hi simon.
Yes, I can see what you mean,
But in the BSA, there is essentially no "Oil Pressure"...
Just a flow of oil to lubricate the cams and a flow into the bigend bearing via the flywheel for the rollers,
(In case the oil passages at the bigend bearing is not blocked...)
And the flinger disk to spray around...
I believe the only pressure in the system is behind the spring loaded ball on the feed line,
And the flow is really slow. :relaxed:
Noam.
Simon
I cured a persistent wet sumping problem on the Super Rocket ith an external anti wet sumping valve as supplied by Britie. Had it fitted for over 15 years with no problems.
People will now post on here warning you of the dangers of these but I guess if these were real he wouldn't have been selling them for 30 years!
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BSA-GOLD-STAR-B31-33-ANTI-WET-SUMPING-VALVE-STAINLESS-MADE-IN-ENGLAND-/392070164253
I cured a persistent wet sumping problem on the Super Rocket ith an external anti wet sumping valve as supplied by Britie. Had it fitted for over 15 years with no problems.
People will now post on here warning you of the dangers of these but I guess if these were real he wouldn\\\'t have been selling them for 30 years!
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BSA-GOLD-STAR-B31-33-ANTI-WET-SUMPING-VALVE-STAINLESS-MADE-IN-ENGLAND-/392070164253
Yup, I know of these and I know of the (everlasting) debate concerning their pros and cons. Personally I prefer to address the actual cause of a problem rather than adding another feature on my bike (that may or may not cause problems in itself), as I do believe that the bike was not built to wet sump. These machines are as I am sure everyone here knows perfect in every way. :innocent:
I. e. I would rather repair the ball and spring valve that I have than add another one, on top of the not working one. Maybe I will never get the original one to seal properly and then I guess I will give this one a try. :grinning:
Best regards,
Simon
I'm with you Simon! I'd rather remedy the original fault.
I also refuse to succumb to the installation of modern leak proof petrol taps. All my taps are the original type with corks, and I have to periodically drain a tank and re-cork a tap.....It's just pure stubbornness on my part. Ron
email (option): ronpier@talk21.com
Does anybody know the size of the ball?
I ordered one and it is to small, pushes right through the hole. Now mind you it may well be that the dreaded previous owner in (Sri Lanka) altered this in some way or another. It may not be that I was delivered the wrong size of the ball.
The one I was delivered is 3/16, and the one in place (with dents and scratches in it) is 7/32, I think.
Best regards,
Simon
It's a 1/4" ball Simon. I see Draganfly have it listed as 3/16" but for 1937-39 only, so some adjustment to there website needed. You should be able to buy them from your local bearing shop or off ebay. Ron
email (option): ronpier@talk21.com
Damn it!
A local bearing shop I not something that we have here in Gothenburg, or I think anywhere else in this country for that matter. Although you think maybe we shoud, being the hometown of SKF and all!
All have to order a new one, from Devilfly. And inform them their listing is wrong.
Or I might actually have one laying around, from some dismantled stearing head or something.
Thanks for help!
/simon
Simon,
we all would like to know if this cures the problem.
Let us know, oke ?
I wouldn't use a second hand ball Simon, especially from a steering head! It's bound to be worn uneven.
Plenty on Ebay. One guy is selling sets of 22 NOS for £1.99 but you would have to offer him post costs to the land of SKF.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=m570.l1313&_nkw=1%2F4%22+steel+ball+bearing&_sacat=0
PS I would avoid the ones that say 1/4" (6mm)
Ron
email (option): ronpier@talk21.com
Thanx!
Yeah, good thinking about the used ones being worn and out of round.
/Simon
And Mick I’ll make sure to keep you posted on the progress!
I would also like to apologize for the sometimes strange writing in my recent posts. I am writing them on my phone, and the autocorrect seems to have played a few tricks on me.
Ok, Quick update: As it turns out my local bearing supplier is myself. Thing is that when ever I order small things that are easy to drop and that may roll or bounce away and disappear in my not so tidy garage I always make sure to buy a few extra. Since the cost is virtually nothing in the grand scheme of restoring things, and in comparison to the annoyance of losing say a clutch roller and not finding it just when you are about to install the clutch.
So as it turns out I had a couple of unused 1/4 “ balls laying around (of course stored separately from the used ones). Installed it yesterday and have now left the bike to go on holiday for three week, l’ll be back after that with an update on how things are working .
But since it did turn out that I did indeed have a to small ball in place (se above for size specifications) and one that was also scratched and unevenly worn I have some hope for an Improvement. Unfortunately I have reason to believe there may be a wrong sized ball in the pump as well. But I will get back to that at a later time.
Best regards,
Simon
The ball in the pump is not a 1/4" ball as in the timing cover anti drain valve....It's 7/32"..Ian
email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com
Ah, ok!
Good news Ian!
/simon
I've just bought an ABSAF oil pump kit for my Goldie project...It includes the high output pump, filter gauze, mounting bolts, machined sump plate and studs/nuts...
For anyone interested, with currency exchange, postage and VAT the total was £425...Ian
email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com
Update post holiday:
The bike was left to rest for a few weeks while I was sailing, swimming and reading. It still wet sumps. Not as badly as before and if I was to be riding it on a regular basis it would probably be ok. But I may not always be doing that.
Might consider the anti wet sumping valve after all.
/simon
Simon,
There has been a lot of discussion in the past about the in line sumping valves and the verdict seems to be don't use them due to oil flow restrictions. I have used one of these valves on both my M20 and my 16H. I cannot see any restriction on the oil flow at all on both bikes. I also ride my bikes regular and have not had any problems. These valves are also sold for white metal bearing engines like BSA A10s which need a bigger flow of oil than any of our roller bearing engines. But i have no experience of fitting one of these valves to an engine which has white metal bearings.
I will address my wet sumping the next time i remove my oil pump, by lapping the loose ball into the bottom plate of the pump. This will be my problem and if it works i will remove the inline valve but for the time being i have no worries with the inline valve, and i don't want to disturb my near as can be oil tight engine.
Before you make the decision read the thread about these valves and what Ian did to lap his loose ball into the bottom of the oil pump plate.
Don't think you can do much with a 16H apart from fitting a new pump unless you fit a valve.
Tim W
email (option): t.j.walker@btinternet.com
Hello Tim,
Thanx for your input! The thing is that I already addressed the ball in the oil pump during rebuild so I’m quite sure that’s not the issue really. Or maybe it is? Who knows.
Lot to be said about the anti wet dumping valve, and I previously stated that I would rather fix the original problem than adding another part that may or may not cause problems in itself.
Thing is like I said before that if I was to ride the bike on a daily basis this would probably not be an issue at all. But I don’t...
Whole thing bothers me a bit since my Triumph Bonneville is totally free from wet dumping however long I leave it without fireing it up.
/simon
email (option): SimonofSweden
Triumphs if it is an early one have a different pump to BSA's.
As Ian says, Triumph's have a piston pump so less likely for the oil to get past unless well worn. The oil just runs around or through our gear pumps.
Tim W
email (option): t.j.walker@btinternet.com
Yes very different indeed.
I have built them both from crank to handlebars and tail lights so I am fairly aware of their construction. But no way for you all to know what I know about my bikes of course! :D
Appreciate all input.
Best regards,
Simon
email (option): SimonofSweden
Just run them on the straight grade they were designed for. I've put Morris straight 50 in both my 16H and M21 and both have stopped wet sumping. I can't see any point putting expensive oils in these bikes as any side valve barrel with all the gubbins on one side is likely to distort and thus burn oil. The Beezer was rebuilt by Rick Partington and the Norton at a field station in 1945. Not been apart since save for the magdyno
email (option): jeremy@clogmaker.co.uk
/simon
Monograde oil certainly isn't a cure in most cases...Ian
email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com
I use a valve on my 16H and ES2 with no problems at all. Easy to check the oil indicator when started on the 16H but make sure you get the right type of valve. I was talking to a bloke who fitted a breather type valve with a rubber flap and it didn't work. The one I use is from an eBay seller "bikerbsa", his valve screwed straight into my crankcase so was as near as possible to the pump and you can't see it.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BSA-CLASSIC-BIKES-ANTI-WET-SUMPING-VALVE-IN-STAINLESS/392098528193?hash=item5b4ae4bbc1:g:~eMAAMXQU6tQ~u0Y
email (option): horror@blueyonder.co.uk
Horror,
Those are the type i have fitted to my M33 and the 16H, both screwed direct into the crankcase. been there for around 4 years and never been a problem. I cannot see a reduced flow but have not measured it to see if it has. I will sort the BSA pump out the next time i have it in bits, but i don't think you can do anything with a 16H unless you buy a new pump, so the valve will stay on that one.
Tim W
email (option): t.j.walker@btinternet.com
I've had the one sold by bikerbsa (Polly Palmer) for 15 years without problems. As Polly is ex president of BSAOC and current active member he's unlikely to sell dodgy BSA stuff.
There is no single best solution for wet sumping. It depends on a number of factors, best illustrated by some examples:
Case 1: You have a large family, a full time job, a number of other hobbies, own a number of motorcycles, spend a limited amount of time in your workshop and only ride your BSA occasionally. Your best bet to avoid wet sumping is to drain the oil each time after your occasional ride.
Case 2: You have a small family, are retired, love tinkering in your workshop, only own a few motorcycles and ride frequently. You have already fixed your anti-wet sumping valve and you advise everyone else that this is the only solution.
The truth is somewhere between these two extremes. I have 6 motorcycles and 2 of them have dry sumps. I have fitted a small ball valve in the pump suction line on each. One can of course forget to open the valve and for this reason, I would not recommend it to everyone. It works for me though.
:smiley:
email (option): pvlietstra at gmail
I think you have some good points there Peter.
As for fitting a manual valve to the oil feed to keep the bike from wet sumping:
Have I ever driven off forgetting to turn on the fuel tap? Yes I have.
Have I ever tried to drive away with a lock in the wheel? Yes I have.
Will I sooner or later forget to turn on the oil before riding off? I most certainly will!
That's just me.
/simon
You're a braver man than me, or you have a better memory. Have you ever ridden off and forgotten to turn on the petrol..? If yes then you can just as easily do it with the oil tap. The problems I've heard about with anti wet dumping valves have either been down to plastic or poor quality valves breaking or user error like wrong type of valve fitted and no way the pump will open it. I can open my valve with a light suck, if you can't, it's the wrong valve. Also Velocette fitted them as standard on the oil tank, so further away than I fit them, and I've never heard of a Velo seizing up because of one.
email (option): horror@blueyonder.co.uk
Beat me to it Simon 😀
email (option): horror@blueyonder.co.uk
I have tried any and all remedies to cure the wet sumping on my M21. The problem is I have over 30 bikes and can't ride them all. Also where I live it can get hot in the summer (111 degrees a week ago) which makes the wet sumping worse. My Norton Commando will also empty the oil tank in the summer. The only old bike I have which does not do this in my Velocette which has from the factory a check valve in the oil line.
I finally this year fitted a shut off valve to the M21 which has cured the problem. Yes I know I could forget to turn on the oil but am not worried as on all my old bikes they get a full inspection before starting and any time I stop for fuel, food or beer. I always check to see if oil is going in to the motor and returning to the tank before the bike moves.
I must be lucky then. I'd certainly never ever put on an off valve.
email (option): jeremy@clogmaker.co.uk