I've just realized that Velocette at least was one of the bike manufacturers who fitted Exide batteries as in Rob Millers picture.
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So with the top that is fitted to my Varley battery which obviously came from a WD Exide and A Dutch friend who says he has a period civy Exide. Arnaud will be able to make us Velo Owners some batteries. :slightly_smiling_face:
Although annoyingly the Velo battery holding clamp will partially hide the WD marking that we crave for. Ron
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email (option): ronpier@talk21.com
OK the EXIDE battery in NL was wrong!
Does anyone have an old EXIDE battery like this one? (I have the top) That I could borrow or get a few pictures with some conformation measurements.
This picture is good enough for scaling size and other details, but annoyingly, where the lid is placed is hiding any wording that might be there.
I'd be very grateful for any help. Ron
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email (option): ronpier@talk21.com
Hi Ron
What does it say on the top of your battery, I can't make it out from the side picture in the other thread.
Rob
email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk
Here it is Rob. Ron
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email (option): ronpier@talk21.com
Here are some other illustrations from the same Chilwell book, they look pretty similar to your Varley, so maybe the motorcycle size battery shown previously is also a Varley, and your WD top is original to your Varley battery?
Rob
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email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk
Rob Those batteries are for four wheeled vehicles. The WD top to my Varley battery was added by me. The original top is plane.
Stupidly I had not referred to my Velo MDD parts book until today, which clearly shows the Exide. Ron
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email (option): ronpier@talk21.com
I realise that the larger batteries are not motorcycle fitment, I'm pointing out the cycle and stripes motive and suggesting that Varley batteries could be a third wartime manufacturer, or possible even a subcontractor to Exide.
Or its possible that some of the illustrations in the Chilwell book are borrowed from pre war spares lists?
Rob
email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk
And another thing, your top says "Dry Accumulator", is that correct?
Rob
email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk
I honestly don't know Rob. The illustration in the Velo parts list just seems to show EXIDE on the top. Ron
email (option): ronpier@talk21.com
Rob I did some googling and found that "accumulator" is a current term. Ron
Rechargeable cell – the lead acid accumulator
Class practical or Demonstration
Some electrochemical cells are rechargeable – the electrode reactions are reversible and the process can be repeated many times. Such cells can be used to store electricity. The most common type of heavy duty rechargeable cell is the familiar lead-acid accumulator (‘car battery’) found in most combustion-engined vehicles.
A simple lead-acid cell consisting of strips of lead and an electrolyte of dilute sulfuric acid is constructed and charged for different lengths of time. The cell is then discharged through a light bulb and the time the bulb remains lit measured. Plotting a graph of this time against the charging time shows the relationship between the electrical energy put into the cell and the energy released.
email (option): ronpier@talk21.com
Hi Ron
There isn't much info on the web about this subject which I suppose is what makes it so interesting as a fresh topic, there are some mentions of Varley dry accumulators being used in aircraft which probably makes sense if they intend to fly upside down.
Your WD top appears to be a reasonable fit on your Varley battery and doesn't actually say Exide on it so we can't be sure as to its origins, but it would probably say Air Ministry if it was from a Spitfire?
But your top also says Lead Acid which isn't Dry?
All fascinating stuff but more clues are needed.
Rob
email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk
Rob, despite the fact that it says 'DRY' on the top. Now that I have thought to read the instructions on the inside. It clearly states the normal procedure of topping up with distilled water. Ron
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email (option): ronpier@talk21.com
Ron, what does it say inside your original plain Varley top?
Rob
email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk
Here it is Rob, a shorter version of the WD lid.
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and the outside of the WD lid again, now removed from the bike. Ron
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email (option): ronpier@talk21.com
This forum discussion is interesting, it say the Varley MC7/12, was standard fitment for the post war Triumph TRW, your lid says "MC7/12" and the WD mark carried on post war, maybe the "Dry" reference is part of Varley's historical trademark?
http://www.britbike.com/ubb/bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=print_topic;f=13;t=007726
Does anyone have any TRW literature to confirm this?
Rob
email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk
Well that seems to clear that up Rob. In that case, when this is all over, it looks like I will have quite a rare battery for a TRW owner.
From the illustration in the Velo MDD parts list, it just has the EXIDE logo on the lid......If the illustration is accurate? Ron
email (option): ronpier@talk21.com
When was dry-charging introduced ? Is that what the lid is referring to ? The term 'accumulator' was certainly in use in the 1930s, although vehicle manufacturers seem to have preferred the term 'battery'. They used to take the wireless accumulators to the shops to be recharged in areas that had no mains electricity.
Here's the only wartime advert that I can find showing a (civilian) Exide.
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Are there any Velocette images in the IWM Kidbrooke collection ? The photos generally are very detailed. There are also likely to be battery comparisons in the National Archive MWEE files, maybe with illustrations.
Thanks Rik. Clearly they used a non ribbed version (less pleasure) on the WD bikes. I'm ordering a higher res of this one from IWM. Ron
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email (option): ronpier@talk21.com
Varley WD batteries could still be wartime, just because they were still being made in the 1950s doesn't mean they weren't made earlier.
Rob
email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk
I wonder if there is any info in this publication. ebay no 162804107410.
Thanks for the heads up Steve. But £36 is a bit of an expense for a book that may or may not have a picture of the battery I'm looking for.
I've filled out a form to buy the Velo picture above from the IWM, quoted at £7.50 and they've just sent me a request to pay £11.50??
I will have to phone them to see if I've got something wrong or missed something? Ron
email (option): ronpier@talk21.com
I have found another picture of a WD Varley battery on the Ariel in Bruce Main Smiths book "the first military machine scene", the picture was taken in the late 1970s on a restored machine, I wonder if that "55" is the date?
Rob
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email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk
Hi all and Happy N ew year
If anyone is going to make up hollow versions of these old WD batteries, is there any chance they would make a few additional tops/lids for those of us who'd particularly like that bit only?
all best peter
The Exide batteries for my Velo's arrived today. Made by Arnaud in France. FABULOUS! Thanks a million Arnaud. I think he will make a small batch but apart from Velo I don't know what other WD bikes would have fitted them, but surely some pre war makes. Ron
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email (option): ronpier@talk21.com
Very Nice Ron,
Top quality as usual! Well done Arnaud! :+1:
Jan
email (option): wd.register(at)gmail.com
Beautiful, are you going to paint them?
Rob
email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk
Good question Rob! Very few factory or period pictures which show the battery, but I'd say yes to painting them in keeping with normal WD procedure. Ron
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email (option): ronpier@talk21.com
Just noticed the India office M20 used an Exide battery.
Rob
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email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk
There are some references in the Norton records regarding India Office machines which refer to Exide batteries and photographic evidence seems to confirm this.
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Colour according to the Amal records was 'Middle Stone No.62' and the mixing chambers were to be painted in this colour.
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Yep! The India Office C11 also has an Exide T battery. Ron
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email (option): ronpier@talk21.com
And a Rubberlite tail lamp, but the grips look more like the fat Amal type?
Rob
email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk
Indeed they are Rob. The 1939-40 'C' range all used the pre-war internal wire twist grip. Ron
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email (option): ronpier@talk21.com
From a current eBay listing. The leaflets are post-war as the most recent patent referred to was applied 1948 and granted 1951. The earliest number dates from mid-1939 but no indication of when production commenced.
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=5&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=19390522&CC=GB&NR=506062A&KC=A#
There is at least an explantion of the technology. The Varley Dry Motorcycle Battery was indeed a lead-acid type but with the acid absorbed in matting. In effect, an early version of the AGM battery but not as low maintenance.
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A bit more about "dryfit" I remember them from Military portable radio equipment.
https://www.exidegroup.com/eu/en/product/sonnenschein-rail
Mark
email (option): pes.sales@btconnect.com
Those are modern Gel batteries Mark. The older type as in torches and radios were Zinc-Carbon I think? Ron
email (option): ronpier@talk21.com
Nice one Rik! Matchless used Varleys on their last couple of contracts, so still looking for one, hope Arnaud will make some, as he has the original!
I do have an NOS postwar one, but they are different as said before.
Lex
email (option): welbike@welbi**.net
I think someone will have to visit Arnaud and check that he's all right!:face_with_thermometer: Ron
email (option): ronpier@talk21.com
Absorbent medium was Fuller’s Earth to make it a non-spill “damp” wet battery 😂
They had a small range - the MC7/12 came in basic style with side terminals, the MC7/12T, with a ‘T’ cover over the side terminals, and the MC7/12L which had wires emerging from the basic rectangular battery unit.
MC5/9 was fitted as standard to BSA D1/3 Bantam, C10L and Ariel Colt. Varley was a competitor in motorcycle batteries to the likes of Lucas and Exide, but their batteries became a bit of a marketing story as they were fitted to Fairey Delta 2 (FD2) the British supersonic research aircraft, the first aircraft to exceed 1,000 mph in level flight, setting a world speed record of 1,132 mph on March 10, 1956.
I’ve been looking for an MC5/9 for years if anyone has one on a garage shelf gathering dust…
email (option): prdillingham@aol.com
I have one of the excellent repro batteries but I just have the wires coming out of the holes at the side. Should there be a sought of nut and bolt in the holes to attach the wires on?
email (option): richiewhite765@gmail.com
If you are replicating an Exide then it looks as if you should. Lucas had top terminals hidden by the cover.
This is my original Lucas WD battery that Arnaud used for his moulds. He even made me a dummy top. Ron
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email (option): ronpier@talk21.com
Arnaud makes a great product...In fact I have one of his cases...However, his erratic and unpredictable production makes it very difficult when planning to commit resources to reproducing parts for what is a very small market.....Ian
email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com
Yes Ian, it's such a shame. But he's had all sorts of problems over the years. I received 6 batteries recently after a 2 year wait (4 of which went to guys who have waited patiently). The Nife batteries that were produced by Arnaud and Jan as a joint project are absolutely perfect in all their detail and construction.....I doubt we'll ever see them again. Ron
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email (option): ronpier@talk21.com
Ah Ron,
Arnaud made it almost right.
Arnaud made hexagonal nuts for the attachement of the wires but that was not the original configuration and I remade them.
According the original nut drawing these were made as follows. (1935 drawing is in mm!)
In words, 7 mm total height, 4mm high with 12 mm diameter and the remaining 3 mm, 13mm diameter with cross wise knurling.
Overall, the combination of Jan and Arnaud definitly made the best possible reconstruction in the world.
Possibly the only production run due to the much increased cost and low series.
For anyone wanting to know more about the NiFe, the brand name for what is actually a Nickel Cadmium battery, see https://www.wdnorton.nl/Electrical_equipment_page/Article%20Lucas%20C105%20(issue%20003)%20.pdf.
cheers,
Rob
email (option): wd16h@telfort.nl/info@wdnorton.nl
Hi Rob. I guess Arnaud didn't have that information, as the one he copied had Bakelite knobs. I'll make a drawing from your dimensions and ask my friend if he'll make me some. (6 in total)
Cheers Ron
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email (option): ronpier@talk21.com
Ron,
Arnaud also has the original drawing I found in Sweden. I do not know why he chose to go the easy way.
The picture you add is from a post-war NiFe as I mentioned in my article.
That has plastic nuts with a brass insert. The pre-war version had full brass nuts.
The post-war cover also has 3 stiffening ribs on the inside, the pre-war version does not have those.
email (option): wd16h@telfort.nl/info@wdnorton.nl