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How to - Painting a WM20 ??

Hi all,
Further to my question re: paint colours etc, what is the consensus on painting ones frame, wheels, tank etc? Does everyone spray paint? or use an artist's fan type brush ?

If at all possible, I'd like to paint this build myself (i've previously always got things done by a pro or powdercoated) - given the military type paint job. A friend of mine suggested using a fan brush or dipping is mostly akin to how things were done at the factory - Though I can't see me buying a bathtub and enough paint to fill it to dip the frame and tank!?!

Painting it myself would mean I can save considerable cost, time and can restore one piece, paint it, and install it - then move on. This is a piece by piece build, as I only have a frame, fork and engine to start with. Also, note: I don't have a big enough compressor, or spray guns - so if I had to purchase all that gear, it'd probably be cheaper just to get everything painted by someone.

Apologies if this has been covered before - I did some searching and couldn't find anything.

email (option): marty.whyte@gmail.com

Re: How to - Painting a WM20 ??

You don't need a large compressor to spray. I sprayed my bike with a cheap one from Lidl and a low pressure gun off eBay. I've bought a better compressor since but it did the job. I still use the spray gun. I had lots of problems with the paint being to shiny, so I leant to dust it over to get a better Matt finish, this was totally different from trying to get the best gloss finish. I learnt a lot about spraying doing it.

email (option): horrorhouse@blueyonder.co.uk

Re: How to - Painting a WM20 ??

They left the factory with a nice sprayed finish of hard baked enamel and a dipped frame.
THe various services repainted them using a yard broom so an authentic paint finish is done with a coarse brush.
However that will anger the "war is great" or the "war is pretty" crowd.
So as it is your bike, finish it by whatever means you have available.

email (option): bsansw1@tpg.com.au

Re: How to - Painting a WM20 ??

Hi Marty,

Instead of paiting part for part I would strongly advise you to do a so-called 'dry-rebuild", assemble all the parts bare, make sure you get the bike complete and everything right, get it running, do a few testrides, adjust where you have to and only then take it apart and do the paintjob in one go.

Taking apart will only take a few hours and after that you can fully concentrate on prepairing for the painting.

It also allow you some more time to think about how to do the painting :smile:

email (option): m.wijbenga@hotmail.com

Re: How to - Painting a WM20 ??

Tevor obviously has a sense of humor.
It's a stange idea that these bikes were painted + treated bad back then in the war, when they were new.
And now they are old, they are often repainted to the highest standard, they never had before.

Re: How to - Painting a WM20 ??

Michiel,
I had thought of doing a dry build, and may well do so, however, I had thought certain things might want to be painted or at least primed before the dry build and test runs. Things like the oil tank and fuel tank etc, which may well require a thorough clean, de rust, and internal liner' and as such might want to be primed as I go at the very least.

I see what you mean though, ie. Don't paint to the final quality then gin around trying to get things fitting etc. Words of wisdom I'll certainly take on board.

Hard to fatham using a course brush on the 'restoration' bike, however I have seen photos of the original tanks with said finish. Quite hard core and I'm not sure I could live with it! heheheh.

Thanks for the comments guys :)

email (option): marty.whyte@gmail.com

Re: How to - Painting a WM20 ??

I've spoken to quite a few of the REME chaps who maintained/overhauled bikes and the methods used for refinishing were governed by the equipment, facilities and time that were available to use rather than a rigid procedure...

Complete machines were brush painted when no compressor and spraying equipment was available...When it was they were frequently resprayed outside..It is clear that in the latter case the paint finish would have become contaminated with airborne detritus, dust, insects etc...

I was told the method was to wash the bike, apply grease with a brush to all the bits you didn't want painted, then do the spray job and when that was dry clean off the grease with paraffin or similar....

In a base workshop with full facilities and during a full rebuild I imagine the various parts were sprayed separately before assembly...

As usual there was no single method and expediency was the order of the day...

I remember all of the Royal Marines vehicles at the barracks in Plymouth being resprayed outside on the parade ground into Desert colours before the first Gulf War...Even most of the window glass was sprayed to cut down on reflection. So, methods haven't changed too much over the years!

I had a friend who was a coach painter for Plymouth City Corporation in the days when buses were hand painted (as the Royal Coaches still are) and a finish that matches or exceeds spraying can be achieved with patience...

I once decided to see what I could achieve by this method and after buying the right brushes etc. I painted the whole of my Ariel Square Four by hand using a synthetic enamel..'Parsons Vehicle Finish'...I was well pleased with the final result but it does take patience...

It shouldn't be any problem at all to achieve a good result on your M20...The key is thorough preparation, to have good quality brushes and to religiously clean and dry them after each use..Also, decant a small amount of paint from the main tin into another container to avoid contaminating the main bulk of the paint. Clean and refill the small container as required with the minimum amount of paint to avoid waste...I'm sure you'll find some information on the internet about the correct procedures....Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Re: How to - Painting a WM20 ??

I was actually quite serious.
All of the original M20's ( as the army actually ran them ) I have seen down here were rough brushed and some of them had been done quite a few times.
Of the B40GA's I bought directly from the army, the one that was actually used by signals was brush painted a totally different colour.
The white on blue patch with No 40 in red was also hand painted although at one time it had been stencelled .
The 2nd AIF insignia on the other side of the tank was also hand painted yellow over what looks like was an original silver stencelling, all of the alloy parts had been painted with heat proof silver frost also by hand.

The few WM20's still in original finish ( including some on barracks ) were also hand painted and not a one of them was as "glamourous" as the "original & perfect " finishes I see at display days.
It sort of reminds me of 20 year olds pretending to be in authentic 50's cloths wearing stuff that would have them arrested if they appeared in pubic dressed like that in 1950.
While I am sure there were many proud squaddies who were very accompulished with a paint brush who spent hours making sure their regimental insignias were drop dead georgous and picture perfect I am also just as sure there were an equal number who just did what the manual dictated.

As for brushing enamel, I have done a few in my day and the finish was usually superiour to spraying as there is no underspray in awkward to get at places. Good quality brushing enamel, thinned appropriately ( in my case with penetrol ) applied with good quality brushes gives a brilliant finish which is a lot thicker than sprayed finishes.

email (option): bsansw1@tpg.com.au

Re: How to - Painting a WM20 ??

Trevor, I think that you're mixing up vehicles at the end of their service life with those taken on strength. Of course machines that had seen wartime service had been crudely repainted by the time that they were demobbed in the 1950s or 1960s. However, there were very clear instructions, in Britain at least to the effect that they should not be repainted simply because of a change in the standard service colour or disruptive schemes. This indicates that they were not repainted regularly just for the fun of it.

My particular Norton was produced in late December 1939, despatched to Chilwell and from there to France. It was abandoned in Belgium during May 1940. The paint finish indicated that it hadn't been re-painted in that time, although a contrasting disruptive finish had been brushed on and I did the same. After eight years of use, mine is now far more patinated and tatty then could have been achieved in the four or five months of service that it saw.

It's surely for the owner to decide at which point in the vehicle's life cycle he wishes to display it. As delivered, they were spray painted. Not to a particularly high standard and certainly with blemishes but they were not crudely brush-painted.

Chilwell had skilled signwriters and the trade was not uncommon. Some units did it better than others, but stencils were supplied by Ordnance.

What the post-war Australian Army did with their B40s is completely irrelevant here.

In my view, the only way to achieve authenticity is to restore to ex-factory condition and then start the life cycle again. Use it. Ride it through the mud, lean it against trees, fall off it and kick it straight...and when it gets too bad, then decide whether to do an in-service repaint or start off again...but it has to be personal choice.

Re: How to - Painting a WM20 ??

Thank you all! Great information.

Strangely, my compressor died yesterday, and was forced to upgrade, and as such, I did so, without going all out. That said, I should now have enough air to spray my bike. Which I think I will do.

That said, how does one ensure a matt finish? sprinkle sand over the wet paint? ;)

email (option): marty.whyte@gmail.com

Re: How to - Painting a WM20 ??

No you simply buy paint in the desired finish from your auto paint shop. Mat-eggshell-satin-gloss etc......Much like paint for your home from the DIY store.

For several years now I've been using paint from a local auto paint firm. It's 'single pack Polyurethane' (synthetic) in mat. It's easy to use, very robust and fairly petrol resistant.

I don't know if you've chosen a colour yet, but it probably would have been Service Brown in 42? I can quote BS 499 for service Brown and BS 298 for British Olive Drab but not for Khaki No3 although I now have a RAL number for a German military green that is reasonably acceptable for that. Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Re: How to - Painting a WM20 ??

Rik
Trevor, I think that you're mixing up vehicles at the end of their service life with those taken on strength. Of course machines that had seen wartime service had been crudely repainted by the time that they were demobbed in the 1950s or 1960s. However, there were very clear instructions, in Britain at least to the effect that they should not be repainted simply because of a change in the standard service colour or disruptive schemes. This indicates that they were not repainted regularly just for the fun of it.

My particular Norton was produced in late December 1939, despatched to Chilwell and from there to France. It was abandoned in Belgium during May 1940. The paint finish indicated that it hadn't been re-painted in that time, although a contrasting disruptive finish had been brushed on and I did the same. After eight years of use, mine is now far more patinated and tatty then could have been achieved in the four or five months of service that it saw.

It's surely for the owner to decide at which point in the vehicle's life cycle he wishes to display it. As delivered, they were spray painted. Not to a particularly high standard and certainly with blemishes but they were not crudely brush-painted.

Chilwell had skilled signwriters and the trade was not uncommon. Some units did it better than others, but stencils were supplied by Ordnance.

What the post-war Australian Army did with their B40s is completely irrelevant here.

In my view, the only way to achieve authenticity is to restore to ex-factory condition and then start the life cycle again. Use it. Ride it through the mud, lean it against trees, fall off it and kick it straight...and when it gets too bad, then decide whether to do an in-service repaint or start off again...but it has to be personal choice.

Ex factory as in green with just a C number ?
did not the bikes sent to Egypt get a lighter sand coloured overpaint ?

And I do appreciate what you are saying.
I just find it amusing how owners will pick a bit of this and a bit of that then poke their chests out about authenticity .
When all is said & done to be truely authentic the bike needs to be painted according to its contract finish then any insignias have to be those where that contract was originally despatched to.

An d yes the B40 is as bought and gets marked down on concorse events because it is the wrong colour and very few accept that it is as bought till they see the pictures with the dust build up on the number plate holder clearly showing its military number plate.

email (option): bsansw1@tpg.com.au

Re: How to - Painting a WM20 ??

Nothing is original once it's been 'restored'...Think about it...:grimacing: ....

The rest is just unoriginality variations determined by the owner....Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Re: How to - Painting a WM20 ??

Hi
My 41 WM20 is of Australian origin C4357367/Australian 13709 frame and engine 40775.
Not sure how it found its way into NZ but my son and I decided to paint it desert sand and have a sign writer friend hand paint the C number along with a silver fern on a black background thus representing colour scheme as used by NZEF in North Africa.
Cheers
John

email (option): jsaft1951@xtra.co.nz

Re: How to - Painting a WM20 ??

Hi Marty

Compressors are not that expensive to buy and you don't need one too big, If you purchase a diaphragm compressor they are almost silent as well. I have just finished spray painting my WM20 and have 30 years spray painting experience. I would advise that you spay all metal parts with metal etching primer first, this will not only help adhere your top coat but will also help with rust prevention at a later date.

I used Cellulose paint rather than the more common modern 2 pack paint that are sold on the market these days. The main purpose for that was I wanted a matt finish and this is achievable with matting agent mixed in with the paint, your paint shop will be able to mix up to the colour of your choice and add the matting agent for you at the same time. If you go for a 2 pack paint you will never get a proper matt finish only a semi gloss.

Also remember that you will need to give your parts about 3 coats of finished colour to build up a bit of thickness in the paint, Cellulose takes about 7 days to fully harden although it will be touch dry in about an hour ready for the next coat.

Regards

Stuart

email (option): deepsea@vol.net

Re: How to - Painting a WM20 ??

Cheers Stuart,
Never really heard of Cullulose paint. A friend had told me about using enamel as they did in the factory, and 2 pack I'm familiar with.

Cheers. I'll look further into it and try a sample :) Thanks again!

email (option): marty.whyte@gmail.com

Re: How to - Painting a WM20 ??

Dear Marty

One of the main manufacturers of Cellulose is ICI it has been banned over here in Hong Kong as its thinner based, but the lady I used to but paint from 30 years ago can still manage to get stock. It used to be used in the car industry until several years ago when 2 pack hit the market. The main reason I used it is purely down to the fact that's what I was used to when I was a professional modelmaker. If you are used to the 2 pack it will cure faster and I'm sure there must be a matt clear coat on the market that you can shoot over the top if you require a matt finish.

For the waterslide logo on the tank I purchased a flat matt lacquer at my local hobby shop, It is a Japanese brand called Mr. Hobby and specially designed to protect waterslides on models. The product number is B-503 Topcoat, it comes in a small rattle can and I just sprayed 3 coats over the Decal the matt finish was the same as the cellulose so I didn't need to spray the whole tank and it didn't cause the decal to shrink like a spirit based lacquer would do. But you will need to do a test first to see if this product will cover over a 2 pack without reacting. The C number on my tank I used a white water based acrylic and sprayed it on using a small airbrush, I laze cut a stencil using masking tape.

Regards

Stuart

email (option): deepsea@vol.net

Re: How to - Painting a WM20 ??

This is the bike at the minute. I still need to trim the rubbers on the tank and I realised after putting them on that the Decals should have the yellow background not gold

Image_G

Image_H

Image_C



email (option): deepsea@vol.net

Re: How to - Painting a WM20 ??

The correct waterslide transfers with cream background are available from here.

http://www.classictransfers.co.uk/transfers/bsa-6076-94x40mm-3-75-each/

Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Re: How to - Painting a WM20 ??

Ian Wright
Nothing is original once it's been 'restored'...Think about it...:grimacing: ....

The rest is just unoriginality variations determined by the owner....Ian
SWMBO did a contract stint with one of the major museums down here and yes that was a very hot button topic,
Particularly when it came to what pieces to exhibit.
The broken cleaned up as found.
The As found with the missing bits added in a different colour so you know they were added.
The as found with a modern reconstruction next to it for shape & form
The fully remanufactured to as was originally used.
A copy of what the original would have looked like.

I used to be a "friend" of the museum but dropped out over a change in the philosophy about what was to be added to the collection.

To them "Restored" = Cleaned and surfaces stabilized to prevent further decay.
The collectable art lot have another idea all together.

The marine museum goes one further so if a part has to be repaired or remade then it has to be done with original materials.
So when they ended up with an Iron hulled ship that had been welded, all of the welds had to be chipped out and the skin plates hot riveted as they were in the 1800's.
The sponsors were furious but without the volunteers, the "restoration" could not be done.
The volunteers even insisted on hand wound ropes and sails sewn with treddle sewing machines.
Now that is what I call an authentic restoration & was very proud of my very very minor role

email (option): bsansw1@tpg.com.au

Re: How to - Painting a WM20 ??

Thanks for the photos Stuart, and to Trevor and Ian, and everyone else. Help like this is invaluable. :)

Much appreciated.

email (option): marty.whyte@gmail.com

Re: How to - Painting a WM20 ??

Just quickly catching up here...
I was an RAOC Vehicle Specialist for a number of years, and during my time, I was actually in charge of Shed 27 at Ashchurch, which, is (was) the motorcycle shed.
In there, we had a variety of bikes, from Triumph 500 Speed Twins, BSA 350's, Triumph police bikes, Can-Am's and Armstrongs, but tucked away in a corner were two rather sad looking WM20's.

We were responsible for servicing all the bikes, plus tyres, batteries, AND spray painting.

To spray a service bike, we would wash & degrease it, de-rust as required, knock any big dents out where possible, red-lead where needed and then mask up the bits we didn't want painted, then blast the whole thing over with NATO IRR Green paint (or occasionally Bronze Green gloss)
Once dry, it was de-masked, re-stencilled and parked up again, awaiting issue.
Transfers and the like were usually painted over, as were any previous unit markings, and very little was ever sanded down prior to painting.

Hope this helps?
Ian

email (option): fozzie001@hotmail.com

Re: How to - Painting a WM20 ??

This is exciting! I always want to have WM20 bike. Anyway, if you planning to paint your house then you should hire painters in quincy ma. They do their job well!

email (option): contact@quincypaintingcompany.com

Re: How to - Painting a WM20 ??

Roy Barrett makes a good job of painting M20s and other bikes
https://art-of-motoring.co.uk/product/final-approach/

Re: How to - Painting a WM20 ??

I painted my G3L fully assembled over a black powder coat finish that the PO had applied! With a brush. I have had lots of compliments on the finish since it has weathered a bit and received mud and sand and grease/oil. It looks authentic and actually used. I have yet to see any photos of DR bikes in WW2 that did not look like they had been dragged through several hedges backwards.....apart from the factory reference photos. Depends what you want? A fictional representation or what they REALLY looked like....IMHO. :innocent:

Re: How to - Painting a WM20 ??

I'll stick with the 'fictional representation'...Patina to be 'applied' later from clocking up the miles....

The fact is that REALLY they started off new and got worn out over time, they didn't start off worn out.......Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Re: How to - Painting a WM20 ??

"Worn out"....no. In-service, bikes got dirty and got washed down with oil and petrol and were refurbished regularly with a paint pot and a yard brush. They looked "new" in between the supply depot and delivery to the service unit. Even "new" I doubt the finish vaguely resembled that achieved by the rivet counter brigade...IMHO.:relaxed:

Re: How to - Painting a WM20 ??

Let me add, that there IS a point to my (somewhat) tongue in cheek remarks about painting in that many folk really do not have the skills or resources to achieve a high level of finish which might seem rather discouraging. However, unless you are really ham fisted, and the bike is basically "right", it is achievable to have it presented as a very accurate "in service" machine - not worn out - but the way nearly all fully serviceable bikes would have looked like in WW2.

Re: How to - Painting a WM20 ??

'Worn out'...Perhaps a rather lax use of English...To be more specific, when the bikes were manufactured they weren't brush painted and obviously arrived at depots in ex factory, new condition...That finish obviously deteriorated over time and use and became 'worn out' at which point the bikes were refinished to a specification largely dependent on circumstance it seems...

An 'ex factory' finish is just as valid historically as an 'in service' finish (which itself varies) as at various times the bikes were indeed in both conditions.. Frankly it's a ridiculous idea that an 'in service' finish is somehow intrinsically a more credible specification....

I'd be the first to admit that my restored bikes exceed the specifications in some respects that they had when new....That's because I've spent about 50 years trying to build the best bikes I can, though not necessarily the most historically accurate and I have the luxury of expending more time on it than BSA did....However, I've used my rebuilt M20 extensively in all conditions and have had to restore it more than once over the 40 years I've owned it......

During that process it has transitioned from 'over restored' through 'well used' to 'needing extensive restoration work to prevent further deterioration'....I guess somewhere along the way it would have had an 'acceptable' look in the eyes of some observers....Maybe at every stage in fact if everyones view is taken into account...

If you like them hand painted that's fine...My idea of a well restored bike is different to that though and I don't think there is any reason to suppose that hand painted is the most 'correct' finish, it's just one of a few possibilities...Ian




email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Re: How to - Painting a WM20 ??

Just about said it all on here .Get a compressor fro somewhere like tool station you will always use it you will get a good spay gun for thirty pounds . Get an old piece of tin or something to practice on but be patient and build the coats up slowly .For paint just go to jeeparts.

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