I am very lucky to own 2 panel tank Matchlesses from 1939, both of which must have been left in France in 1940 at the time of Dunkirk. It occurred to me that there is an Association of Little Ships which which records the surviving vessels that helped to take the forces off the beaches and why should we also not try and assemble a register of motorcycles that are known to have taken part. Indeed I also have 3 motorcycles that I have personally brought back from Normandy that got left behind in 1944. As time marches on is it not perhaps our duty to record the existence of these Motorcyles as distinct from those that have no known history? If we were to do this then what criteria would we uses to judge if a motorcycle has a known history and worthy of joining such a register? What do others think? JT

email (option): Tinley@btinternet.com

I fully agree with your sentiment John. But the main flaw that I see is that the 'Little Ships' were all named and recorded. But how do you prove that a bike/vehicle found in France has any BEF or invasion history? Over the last 70 odd years, any amount of vehicles could have been exported there.....There has to be some reasonable provenance! A rusty bike in a French farmers shed is not enough to my mind. There will sometimes be the case that a French guy can give you a story which hopefully is true. Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Agree with that Ron, a seller could make all the story he want!!
maybe 6or 8 month ago, on Ebay, there is a James ML, the seller said about it: Come from france found in a museum badly restored, but found after D/Day, with french selling certificate.
a good proof of provenance, and credible, but i very know this bike, some months before i sold it, and for the provenance, this little rusty bike came on the french territory in a LDV ( Landing diesel van) direct from Stuart Bray shop and sold untouched.
some bike found untouched in France yes, these are for sure from the BEF, some M20, with BEF marking, and recently a lovely WD/C with BEF marquing under paint. but lots of came from french army stock, and some like this James make a different way....
you cannot be sure of a story i you don't find it yourself i the shed.

email (option): leger-arnaud@wanadoo.fr

I suspect Rik is already putting together a list or register.

But it must be tricky if the machine wasn't complete when you found it, perhaps you could use a percentage system, "95% BEF".

Its probably the same with the "little ships", how many of them have had all the wood most of the metal and the engines replaced.

Rob

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk

I think the percentage of what remains of any particular ex 'BEF' machine is fairly irrelevant..as it is with most other vintage machines.
In seeking to decide exactly where an 'acceptable' percentage lies you are looking to solve one of the longest running and difficult debates in the 'classic' world..
A machines identity is determined by its frame so theoretically if you had that and a few other bits that would be enough...

The vast majority have had an input of non original parts from other sources or will have when they are restored...

The only relevant point within the context of a BEF register is whether a particular machine was from that period originally....

Provenance and history in the case of the vast majority of machines, whether BEF or not, is so hard (or impossible) to determine that a register containing verified examples would be so small, and probably incomplete, to be meaningless...

It's a nice idea but I suspect verified surviving examples will remain small in number and an interesting quirk of history...

Furthermore, with little or no surviving documentation and most histories being conveyed only verbally, I should think the possibilities for 'Fakery' are endless as outlined by Arnoud in his post......Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

My WDG3L came from Italy

My ex 8th army father used to tell how he backed his tank into a farmhouse for cover, and it fell into the cellar,which happily, as it took a week for the recovery team to get to him and his crew,was a wine cellar.
After he died it turned out that in return for the boozy week he left he farmers daughter, in true British army tradition, with a bun in the oven; in his effects I found the address of the farm and what turned out to be my hitherto unknown elder sister.
I visted the farm to meet her and she told me he had left the bike they had carried on the back of the tank, in that same cellar,and it was there to that day.
Sure enough, there it was, warm dry and cared for,even with some of his kit in the bags; it took a bit of tinkering to get it going on the spot and they let me bring it home.
There it is, the history of my WD G3L, and its as fake as the bike is.

It's the one I tell when someone comes up to me and starts to count rivets.

email (option): deadsheds[at]yahoo[dot]com

Perhaps one way would be to collect as many old photos of the aftermath of Dunkirk and match them to frame numbers. One problem not mentioned was that although a bike may be found anywhere from Franc to Russia, as captured bikes were used on all fronts, they may have been captured in Calais or elsewhere.....

and how much captured stuff went into the melting pot?

email (option): deadsheds[at]yahoo[dot]com

This is a difficult one. There have certainly been times when I've envied the ability of the ADLS to create provenence for craft that may or may not have taken a small part in Dynamo. Of course, they have had decades of esperence, not to mention well-connected backers.

That said, I wouldn't put a brass commemorative plate on my motorcycle anyway.

I suspect that rather than the narrow 'Dunkirk', John was probably thinking of the 1940 BEF campaigns in France and Flanders. Even then, it is difficult to be certain in many cases and whilst I've seen quite a number of machines in France that appear to have been ex-BEF based on equipment levels and engine / frame numbers, there was such an industry in France after the war devoted to civilianising WD machines that I could never be certain where a thorough conversion to civilian trim has been carried out unless the process was documented.

Ex-RASC motorcycles of this period have the advantage that the engines were generally stamped with the census number and this combined with a lack of rebuild markings is probably a good indication but only provides a level of proof on the balance of probabilities.

The only real evidence that I could regard as proving beyond all reasonable doubt that a machine is ex-BEF is the remains of BEF markings combined with the location of the find. These markings were only in use for a short period and cannot have occurred later. If they have not been overpainted with later markings then it is inconceivable that the motorcycle could have remained in service after 1940.

If there are no markings (or a file with photographic evidence detailing them) then I think it is difficult to say with certainty that a machine is 'ex-BEF'...and photographs can be faked. If BEF history were to be perceived as adding to value then I'm sure that documentary evidence could be created. Maybe it's best if things don't go down that route.

This is the '1' on cobalt blue with 2nd Division 'Crossed Keys' that I found when restoring mine :-



...and this is an M20 now for sale :-

http://www.stuart-bray-motorcycles.co.uk/1940-BSA-WM20.html

"Still in BEF colour" - It's taken its inspiration from somewhere I suspect.

I've had a great deal of enjoyment and interest from visiting the locations that 2nd Infantry Division passed through in 1940 but it will always be a tiny minority hobby. A good BEF motorcycle will never be worth much more than a folding parabike. Airborne dontchaknow!

email (option): 79x100@gmail.com

Another possibility (although this also can be faked) is if it has a Wehrmacht Heer (WH and Nazi eagle stamp), as the Germans quite often put proprietary stamps on captured machines and entered them onto their system.....

What about the machines that really DID take part in Dynamo, but ended up being 'found', brought back to the UK, civillianised, run around a bit, broke down, taken to bits and dumped into a box to be forgotten about.
Then "found" again, many years later with no real provenance.
Does that mean that this particular Dunkirk veteran doesn't go on the register?
Just thinking out aloud ;-)

email (option): fozzie001@hotmail.com

Engine and frame number should give period and possible c number which may be traceable......

I'm not sure that a machine which carried Wehrmacht stamps could necessarily be automatically considered a survivor of the fall of France although that is where the majority will have ended up. However, there were also large losses of equipment in Norway, Greece and North Africa and any of those could have ended up on the Eastern Front or in Germany.

If the idea of a register is to facilitate 'Dynamo' commemorations in the same way as the ADSL then once again, I think that without surviving BEF markings there can't really be any provenance. I don't think that there is much call from the public or event organisers to give genuine survivors a special place in the same way that it seems to count with the boats which of course were not military.

'Dynamo' was the evacuation via the northern ports and beaches and no vehicles which had been landed were returned to the UK. There may have been a few which went into Calais with 30th Infantry Brigade, were not successfully unloaded and went back again but they most certainly weren't photographed or documented.

Some machines were evacuated from south of the Somme during operation Aerial but I know of only one photograph showing WD Serial numbers. In this connection, we have the issue that most of the motorcycles were of pre-war date and the serial numbers and frame numbers were not linked (we know this from the surviving crankcases stamped with census numbers).

In general, 'provenance' will depend on paperwork and this can easily be lost. Once lost, then that's it....so if your bike has history then document it, preferably on-line as well. I don't believe that any machine found in the UK with no corroboration of having served in France could even be considered a contender for 'Dunkirk Survivor' but does it matter anyway ?

It was noticeable at Netley and Beaulieu this year how many of the projects in almost 'Barn Find' condition had been tidy restorations from the 1980s or 1990s..probably ten years before the owner stopped motorcycling and left them in a leaky shed. That a vehicle has entered preservation doesn't mean that it is safe for ever.

email (option): 79x100@gmail.com

When there is a anniversary event in Dunkirk I understand an effort is made to take vehicle types of the period, I don't think someone with a 1942 big4 or a 1945 Austin K2 Ambulance would be excluded, but it would be difficult to argue taking a Sherman tank.

Rob

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk

The vehicles in Dunkirk last year were not all quite as period-true as I would have liked to have seen, as a 1940 rivet-counter.

The biscuit was well and truly taken though by a group with a Jeep who found out the itineray and turned up uninvited and Lindy-Hopping. As much of the activity was at public locations, there isn't much that can be done.

email (option): 79x100@gmail.com

Funny thing speaking of provenances. A friend of mine, MWO Bill Mulholland who actually passed away today bought a 1941 Diamond T wrecker from Norway and had it shipped to Canada. By seemingly impossible luck, he found a photo of the truck in Canadian service somewhere in Italy. He identified the truck by the number painted on the door, but also by a huge banged in dent on a front fender which looks like it was done with a hammer by a pissed off fitter. Positive identifications like these are truly a chance in a million and I would imagine more likely on capital pieces of equipment. Identifications such as these truly turn an antique vehicle into a historic one. In my opinion though, such a claim should only be done with irrefutable proof of provenance and by an impartial entity with very strict guidelines. Otherwise claims will be made that may never be checked out and in twenty years will be viewed as Gospel. Future generations will be misled into thinking and believing that something is what it was not.