Me again , be sick of hearing from me soon

Rebuilt the back wheel fitted new sprocket put it into the frame and the sprocket runs out

The wheel itself is fine , I put the old sprocket back on and it still runs out by a good 1/4" strong ,its that bad I would expect the chain to be thrown off and or the sprockets would be "chewed " . I measured the height of the hub centre at two different points from the face of the sprocket and its 3mm difference in height .You can see from the photo the sprocket sits slanted , I cleaned the face of the sprocket and hub so there are no high points on either it seems to be the hub that's "out" .

Does anyone have any ideas what the next move is to rectify it , or where to send it to get it repaired , or will it need another hub



Thanks

Dave

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I wonder if the hub could be tipped during wheel building from over-tightening spokes.

If it was me, i'd take the whole thing apart after first noting the offset. Hopefully the spokes will undo (maybe with some heat) otherwise I'd just chop them out. I would then take the hub to my engineer to set up in his lathe to see what has happened. One way or another it must be able to be straightened.

Like a lot of this restoration work.....It's one step forward and two or three back

Ron

PS. I'm happy to take it to my engineer if you want to send it to me.

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

I find it hard to believe that it was machined like that from new. I'm guessing that someone has attacked it with an angle grinder??

The hubs are usually made from separate parts that are assembled in a jig and brazed together.

Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

An interesting one Dave and Ron.........I can't really add to what you've already mentioned........

WD Flea's in service led a comparatively hard life for what was a lightweight machine not far removed from an autocycle........the Flea weighs around 125lb whereas the other lightweight, the James ML, weighed in at a heavier 160lb and was, arguably, more solidly built than the Flea..........if you put a Flea alongside a James ML, the smaller size and fragility of the former is noticeable.............

Part of this fragility was noted by the military during dropping tests (in a substantial cradle) and in service use..........fittings such as the rubber-banded girder forks, the mudguards, the wheels and the frame were easily distorted or damaged by impacts that a larger 4-stroke machine could absorb without problem...........

Post-war use of a cheap ex-WD Flea (many not sold off until the mid-1950's) further adds to the issues..........my own first contract Flea was sold off in 1955, went through 7 owners and last used on the road in 1974 by a doctor in Norfolk....although substantially complete and original, evidence of a hard life were present.......the rear wheel was of the cup and cone-bearing type with the bearings very worn causing the wheel to have become distorted in the frame, that was also lightly bent adding to the issues.........after repair, the hub now runs on journal bearings............

I was wondering whether it was assembled from separate parts or one piece Ron , I couldn't really make it out while all the spokes are in place .

Just a thought ,do you think the section we are talking about ,could the braze have given up and it have tilted and the actual machined face be correct ?

I'll get it taken apart and send the hub off to you Ron , shall I take the axle and bearings out ?

Thanks

Dave

NB Steve

Terry is making me a clip , done a little deal

Dave I don't think we'll know whats what until it's centred in a lathe. Take the spindle out but let me have both bearings......Just in case it help when setting up.

Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Dismantled the wheel tonight only destroyd 4 nipples :) ,the hub as in the photo's fell apart .The piece that detached itself is a very slack fit on the shaft

I see Hitchcocks have hubs on stock , do you know if the civi back hub is the same as the WD Flea .

Thanks
Dave

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email (option): davemb42@yahoo.com

Blimey Dave! I guess it was just the spokes holding it roughly in place. It's an easy fix apart from locating the flange in the correct position for the spokes.

Since the WD and post war hubs are the same part number (31273) and with post and VAT you can buy a new one for under 50 quid, I'd get one from Hitchcocks.

When you have your new hub, you should be able to use it as a pattern to line up your old flange, mark it, and get it welded/brazed at a later date to sell on and get some of your money back.

The sprockets are different, 35T for WD, 34T civy. Both available from Hitchcocks.

Good job you found that before you headed off down the M1 at top speed

Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Ron Pier

Blimey Dave! I guess it was just the spokes holding it roughly in place. It's an easy fix apart from locating the flange in the correct position for the spokes.

Since the WD and post war hubs are the same part number (31273) and with post and VAT you can buy a new one for under 50 quid, I'd get one from Hitchcocks.

When you have your new hub, you should be able to use it as a pattern to line up your old flange, mark it, and get it welded/brazed at a later date to sell on and get some of your money back.

The sprockets are different, 35T for WD, 34T civy. Both available from Hitchcocks.

Good job you found that before you headed off down the M1 at top speed

Ron

email (option): davemb42@yahoo.com

Did you note any 'offset' before you took it apart? Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

email (option): davemb42@yahoo.com

Maybe your wheel builder will have an idea? Or perhaps put out a shout for anyone with a wheel out the bike to measure it for you. Easiest is a straight edge across the open drum face and measure down to the rim. Otherwise you could take the frame to the builder so he can line it up centrally. Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

I've checked all the WD and associated RE technical data and nothing on the Flea wheel offsets...............

I can have a look at mine tommorow and get some detail...........

As far as I can ascertain however, the hub sits centrally by an equal amount in the centre of the wheel...........but I will check tomorrow........

Steve Madden

I've checked all the WD and associated RE technical data and nothing on the Flea wheel offsets...............

I can have a look at mine tommorow and get some detail...........

As far as I can ascertain however, the hub sits centrally by an equal amount in the centre of the wheel...........but I will check tomorrow........

email (option): davemb42@yahoo.com

email (option): davemb42@yahoo.com

Dave the brake drum wasn't affected which is where I would normally measure the offset from. I did suggest you note the offset right at the beginning of this thread. Without that simple measurement it can involve some guesswork or setting up in the frame. I've looked at mine and I don't think I could get an accurate figure without taking the wheel out.

With the drum on one side and the sprocket on the other, it could be that the rim is dead centre of the hub......But I'm only guessing! Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

email (option): davemb42@yahoo.com

Interesting the NOS hub is different , is the NOS Civi ? The centre is quite a bit thinner and the brake drum is not as deep .





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email (option): davemb42@yahoo.com

Hi Dave
to answer the question about the spoke nipples, it's normal hitchkock's one are smaller, after inspection of your pics you don't have the correct spokes, on the rear wheel you need have 10g/12g butted spokes, look at your workshop manual (page 5 data frame and wheels) .... the bended part of the spoke is bigger ( on 1 inch) than the tapped one, and it's not very easy to find comparate to standart ones, maybe your wheel was rebuilt in the past with incorrect spokes???
Arnaud

email (option): leger-arnaud@wanadoo.fr

Well Dave. Same part number but different part! Best to line yours up and get it repaired whilst you have the new one as a pattern then send it back. If you want to change them, you should be able to get the correct spokes that Arnaud mentioned from someone like https://www.devonrimcompany.com/


Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Both Enfield and James altered a few parts post-war but did not necessarily change the part number !! Come across this a few times.............

Best starting point is a WD and a civvy post-war parts list for comparison..........if any.....

Another good spoke supplier in my experience is "Central Wheel Co" in the Midlands who will make spokes to order.............:-)

PS - still need to measure any off-set in my Flea wheels........sorry, forgot to do so............! Dave (Plumb) dropping off original Villiers air-filter clip with Terry tomorrow for copying !

email (option): davemb42@yahoo.com

email (option): davemb42@yahoo.com

Steve Madden

Both Enfield and James altered a few parts post-war but did not necessarily change the part number !! Come across this a few times.............

Best starting point is a WD and a civvy post-war parts list for comparison..........if any.....

Another good spoke supplier in my experience is "Central Wheel Co" in the Midlands who will make spokes to order.............:-)

PS - still need to measure any off-set in my Flea wheels........sorry, forgot to do so............! Dave (Plumb) dropping off original Villiers air-filter clip with Terry tomorrow for copying !

email (option): davemb42@yahoo.com

Hi Dave. I wouldn't worry too much about specifying butted spokes when getting wheels rebuilt......they cost more that standard spokes and serve no real purpose.......they were more a cosmetic item at the end of the day.........

As for the hub issues, it may be worth having a review of different wheels and hubs before going any further.........my rear wheel on my Flea is fitted with cup and cone bearings, whereas the front has ball journal bearings.........I can photograph and measure my rear hub tomorrow when in the workshop...........

It may also be worth contacting Terry (Metal Magic) as he currently has a few Flea wheels in the workshop which he is sorting out for his own Flea projects so he could possibly compare them..........I am calling in to see Terry on Monday afternoon so can remind him.............

Steve Madden

Hi Dave. I wouldn't worry too much about specifying butted spokes when getting wheels rebuilt......they cost more that standard spokes and serve no real purpose.......they were more a cosmetic item at the end of the day.........

As for the hub issues, it may be worth having a review of different wheels and hubs before going any further.........my rear wheel on my Flea is fitted with cup and cone bearings, whereas the front has ball journal bearings.........I can photograph and measure my rear hub tomorrow when in the workshop...........

It may also be worth contacting Terry (Metal Magic) as he currently has a few Flea wheels in the workshop which he is sorting out for his own Flea projects so he could possibly compare them..........I am calling in to see Terry on Monday afternoon so can remind him.............

email (option): davemb42@yahoo.com

Dave you could just send your broken hub to Terry. He could either repair it or find another one. If you don't have a wheel builder in your area (there must be one!) and if you want to, you could also send him the rim and spokes and if he doesn't have a wheel builder, he can get it to me by Pony express and I can get it rebuilt by my guy. I think he charges 40 quid if you supply the spokes. Of course you will have haulage costs, but it's not expensive by 'My Hermes' Ron

PS could all take a while of course.

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

email (option): davemb42@yahoo.com

I have no doubts that Terry can fix it. Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

haven't quite become a flea in my ear but it you really try hard enough you might
Couldn't resist that one
Shame it did not come to mind a bit earlier .

email (option): bsansw1@tpg.com.au

Quick update on the hub..........Terry has given it a good looking over and it's not going to be a straightforward job .

Apparently the way it looks these were assembled at the factory by making the centre of the flange smaller than the hub centre , heating up the flange and knocking it onto the shaft so when cooled it contracted and became a solid fit .

The offending hub looks like it's been moving around for a while ,it's slightly elongated the flange and worn the centre so making it difficult to get it lined up, also with the heat TIG welding creates there is a good chance it's going to move/warp with the heat .

Thought my luck was in twice when over in Arnhem , Paul from the Glider Museum at Wolfheze thought he had a complete wheel , but unfortunately not off a Flea . I was then told someone had a gearbox , crank ,2 barrels , exhaust , and other small items for sale but the parts turned out to be well worn apart from the barrel , exhaust and flywheel tool , unfortunately it was being sold as a job lot for 300 euro , probably worth it if all the bits were good but there were more worn and broken bits than good .

Looks like the hub I sent back to Hitchcock's is going to do an about turn

To my mind, as long as the flange is lined up correctly for spoke position, it could be TIG welded in short spots and it won't matter if the flange distorts a bit as the spokes will be adjusted accordingly. As long as the central tube and therefore the wheel spindle are true. Maybe suggest this to Terry or Drew.....What have you got to lose? Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Hello Dave,
totally agree with Ron, if the flange is not centered or wrapped it's not very important, when you rebuilt the wheel the spoke correct this, when building a wheel, you align, the spindle with the exterior of the rim, you could have a square, or oval flange, spoke lenght correct this,for me ok for small tack weld with tig, or why not brazing???more discret ( pretty invisible) than tack weld, and if originaly the flange is just "heat/cold"mounted , i think brazing is sufficient,and mechanicaly more soft and flexible than tig weld.
Arnaud
just a detail, it's the drive side, after welding, just a little run on a lathe to realign if necessary the sprocket fixing face ( on the flange)

email (option): leger-arnaud@wanadoo.fr

I'll give Terry a ring tomorrow and see what he say's

Dave

Well if he's not happy to do it (and I'm sure he will) Ask him to send it to me and i'll have a look with my engineer. Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com