Hi all,

I have trawled the Internet from one side of the galaxy to the other, for wartime photos of 3rd Division motorcycles in use in North West Europe (both in support or frontline use) and have closely examined every photo on the BSA M20 CD Rom. But I can't find a single photo of a motorcycle sporting the 3rd Div flash (The Tricorn) .... (Three Black Triangles protecting a Red centred triangle)

I have successfully found many heavy+light 4 wheeled and tracked vehicles with clear 3rd Div Tricorns stencilled on them, but not any motorcycles🤔

Does this mean that they were never applied to bikes in 1944? Or have I not done enough home work ?

I do have a photo of an early M20 with a valance fitted, sitting behind a Bren Carrier with a nice clear 3rd Div Tricorn stencilled on its rear large number plate (with MT110 rear light fitted in the top right corner) but that's the only bike I have seen sporting a Tricorn.

I know that today some artistic licensing is required when it comes to applying unit signs and flashes to our machines, and I would very much like to dedicate my late war motorcycle to Monty's mighty 3rd Division in North West Europe.

I would be very greatful if any one could kindly advise me where I should stencil a Tricorn to my machine (if at all???). Does any one have a wartime photo of a 3rd Division Dispatch rider in his machine to share? I would really like to get this right if possible !

Thanks for reading !

Kind regards,

Mark

email (option): towersmark84@yahoo.co.uk

Ps ...... The photo of that early M20 is taken some where in the south of England in 1941.

email (option): towersmark84@yahoo.co.uk

Hi Mark

Never says never however Rik may have answered your question rather well on this previous thread.

Rob

http://pub37.bravenet.com/forum/static/show.php?usernum=3155626639&frmid=16&msgid=1358363&cmd=show

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk

Full marks for spotting the omission of divisional (or any other) formation signs on motorcycles in NW Europe and for questioning why...

Rather regrettably in terms of the appearance of restored machines or for anyone wishing to display a bike as a tribute, the decision seems to have been taken late in 1941 to delete formation signs on motorcycles. It has come up a couple of times on the forum :-

http://pub37.bravenet.com/forum/static/show.php?usernum=3155626639&frmid=16&msgid=1358363&cmd=show

The problem is that without such a sign, and simply the Arm of Service serial, the motorcycle could have belonged to any of the infantry divisions within 21st Army Group.

3rd Div markings can be seen on BEF motorcycles as they were still in use in 1940 - so they did see action !

Technically, historically it would not be correct to display the 3rd Infantry Division sign on a motorcycle in NW Europe but if you don't, no-one will make the link with the division.

My personal feeling is that it's never nice being the victim of a surprise attack by a rivet-counter but if you're aware of the background info and want a motorcycle that clearly shows the casual observer a link to a particular division then you don't have much choice and 'forewarned is forearmed' as they used to say in the Observer Corps !

Hay ! Many thanks indeed Rob and Rik 👍🏻

Much appreciated

That is fantastic information! Now it makes sence why I couldn't locate any markings ! But now it's time for me to go away and ponder which way I go from here🤔 ...... Decisions .. decisions

Kind regards

Mark

email (option): towersmark84@yahoo.co.uk

Here's one of my M20s with the 8th Independent armoured Brigade 'Red Fox' and on the other side of the tank the markings for the 4/7th. Royal Dragoon Guards...

The 8th.IAB was formed for D Day so there was no way the bike would have had these markings originally...
However, I had a relative who was killed on the afternoon of D Day in this unit so I didn't ponder the accuracy of the markings for too long before painting the bike this way...

At the Royal Dragoon Guards memorial service in Creully, Normandy, veterans of the unit were well pleased to see a vehicle in attendance in the markings of their old unit...and I was happy to have added to their day...

It's not always about historical accuracy after all...

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Well said Ian.

If I've learned anything from this website is the connection between machines and men.

Many old timer's are very happy to see their old colors on restored machines http://assets.bravenet.com/common/images/forum/icons/set16.gif

Fascinating discussion, gentlemen!

I had originally intended to have my M20 marked for my Uncle's unit - 1st Battalion, Welsh Guards, part of the 32nd Guards Brigade. He was the infantry component of the Guards Armoured Division, I believe. He was killed 27th Sept. 1944 at Nijmegen.

As I understand it from this discussion the M20s of this time would only have had 'C' numbers. No unit markings, no Guards "Seeing Eye" badge. Is this right? And -- was the 'C' number placed on both sides of the fuel tank? Or just one side?

They would also not have had knee grips, I think?

All advice gratefully received.

Best wishes, Allan

email (option): allanmatchless@yahoo.com

They would have had the C number on both sides of the tank...

At that time, if there were any other markings (and frequently there weren't) it would have been unit markings only on both sides of the tank, not the Brigade or Divisional marking...

As you will see from the photo I ignored that and used the earlier format with (in my case) the Brigade marking on the 'timing' side and the unit marking on the 'drive' side...Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Hi Alan

I have a book called "The British Soldier" by Jean Bouchery, which seems to be saying that the 1st Bn Welsh Guards was the 3rd in line of the 32nd Guards Brigade which I think would make the correct marking 63 in white on a green square, according to the 1944 regulation that's all you should have painted on a motorcycle other than the "C" number.

However its your bike and you can paint anything you like on it. Here is a nicely done Guards Armoured Signals M20 in South Wales back in the late 1990s, the owner has chosen to put the arm of service number on the front mudguard with the Guards Armoured all seeing eye on both sides of the tank.

Rob

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk

This thread has highlighted the great dichotomy. There really is no clue in the records as to why it was decided to end the use of formation signs on motorcycles...and unless we run an early-war machine, it causes a quandry for anyone wishing to display a specific unit for any reason.

It is unlikley that anyone of us will ever be able to ride in a convoy of several hundred softskins bearing a unit marking which means that it will never be 'obvious' which unit is intended.

In the circumstances, we have to decide for ourselves whether we're intending 100% historical accuracy or the spirit of things...if we're going for accuracy then there are plenty of other aspects which are more detrimental to the period impression....To be honest the post-war rebuild plate on the Guard's Armoured M20 grates more than the Formation Sign...I really do think that if we're aware of the situation and are able to explain to veterans or anyone interested just what has been done and why, then there is no case to answer.

Hello Rik, Rob and Ian,

Thank you for your speedy and most informative replies! I can't help thinking how fortunate we are to be in such an active and helpful forum. Truly, it's impressive. The photo Rob included is especially useful, as well as the information. Thank you! I'll be attempting some stencil work when out gets a bit warmer.

All my very best wishes,

Allan

email (option): allanmatchless@yahoo.com