Anyone seen this?

http://ewarbirds.org/vehicles/1944bsamd20.html

email (option): unpob@yahoo.com

Hi Henri.
I haven't read the whole thing yet. But out of interest.....What's Jerry Greer got to do with it? I've used him for Indian parts! Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

This restoration must have been done at least 20 years ago, before this forum became really active....

On a previous page which I was trying to load they stated that Jerry was doing the resto.

Kind of confusing because it sounded like someone else was doing it.

Will take another look at it.

Thanks guys.

Thought also they could have used this website to make that post war version more accurate. Of course if it was done decades ago as Hans mentioned that would explain it.

Turns out it was done in 2014

email (option): unpob@yahoo.com

The restoration story is kind of sad though. According to that story no workshop manual ever existed for the M20 although over 126,000 were produced. Of course there was an army manual. Furthermore the guys who obviously did the restoration are presumably an extinct species because all of the required information would have been available by using Google or any other good search engine. Ian even moved over to the Internet eventually and computer permitting is actually quite good at it.

The little research they have successfully done at least solved their non-matching engine and frame numbers. And remember this is a museum which at least would have to make a decent effort to educate people. Being a qualified historian makes me very sad indeed.

Regards,
Leon

email (option): leonhop3_at_planet_dot_nl

Just another Amercian "we are the heros of the world" ego boosting exercise.
Start of with a pile of moo poo about how gargantuian the problems in font of you are.
Make no effort to do any research further than the local pub / bar.

Do a 1/2 hearted gestimation then tell the world you are absolutely correct.

Sorry if this offended any US members but this is unfortunately the state of a lot of USA supposed acidemic research that I had to suffer back in my professional career.
Worst thing is it gets on the web then becomes truth.

email (option): bsansw1@tpg.com.au

This really isn't too bad, I've seen a lot worse. The tinwear,s a bit dented tho. Bear in mind its been restored to as when it came out of the army,ie 1965 (apart from the blackout mask, ouch!) Not everyone is obsessed with restoring stuff back to factory finish in WW11.
Now that will run and run!

Thanks for all of the comments folks. Main reason I put up the link is because I was sorry to see so much effort applied and so much potential that failed to use the resources of Henk's website

email (option): unpob@yahoo.com

Hi to all at this website.
I fully agree with all comments about my effort at the restoration of the BSA WD M20.
Any effort to bring illumination of a war machine to a public not in the least acquainted with the stuff should be appreciated for what it is. An effort.
If volunteers waited until all, to the very last detail, specifications (usually argued about among the snotty "experts") were found and available, virtually no "restoration" would get started, much less,done.
So? What's the practical way for a hands-on Museum like ours to pursue these things?
That was the main point of the article I tried to make to our Museum members, who aren't generally inclined to participate in restoration work. "Cause...it's work. Everything's a calculated compromise.
OK, I sucked at the attempt at the M20 restoration. But we've got one on display for the visitors to see. That's better than nothing.

Add that I suck at article writing and general communication.

Oh yeah. I CLEARLY suck at getting the most out of the internet, but I'm learning.

What the hell, I drive 210-280 miles a week to the Museum (3-4 days/week)just to satisfy my itch and hopefully shed a little light on the great effort expended by the allied fight for freedom. We're all torch bearers.

Wish I'd known about this mass of info available from so many knowledgeable people.

Oh, well, on to the next imperfect restoration.

Cheers.

Jerry Greer

email (option): jrgreer5565@sbcglobal.net

Keep at it...That's the main thing...

There are plenty of museums with imperfect displays but as you say, they are enough to create an interest in the public and that has to be good...

Also, even if a preserved machine is not perfect it is preserved...better than being scrapped...Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Hmmmm........I scratched my head over the potted history of British WD bikes in WW2. Clearly Orchard and Madden got it seriously wrong or Jerry needs to find the revised edition of the Ladybird reference book he used! Yes, it IS good to get another WD bike back on the road, but I would have expected a bit more from an organisation that has some educational aspirations.

Well Jerry,
While trying not to be too arguemantative, there is a body called " The BSA Owners Club" and it has been around since the 1950's.Actuall it might ave been the 40's when they were part of Pride & Clarks social groups.
I was certainly using them to source parts back in the 70's.
They actually have several model technical consultants well versed on WD M20's
Then there were resources like Lewis and Sons who were still trading when the restoration was happening and had been BSA agents from day one, no shortage of expertise there and not forgetting Russel Motors as both the brothers were in the shop in those days and were much more willing to have a chat.
I can vividly recall riding my A10 into the Sydney GPO at 1 am local time to book a phone call to the UK from Austrlia to speak to both Lewis & Russels and from memory both their names appear in the listing of BSA agents printed in every parts book BSA printed, including those destined for the USA.
At the very least, Lewis & Sons name appears in the UK phone directory as BSA parts suppliers because that is how I found them from way down here in illeterate Australia.

There is a massive difference between an honest,
"we could not find any primary source information"
or
"at the time of restoration no primary source material was readily available"
and a strait out blatient and deliberate lie
" no manual was ever made"
Museums have a moral duty to get facts correct that is one of the reasons they get all of the taxation benefits.
It also kills the credability of the instution stone dead as there would have been many returned ex servicemen who had held the "material that had never been printed " in their hands so having caught the museum out on such a simple matter will then treat everything they saw as bull dust and most likely tell all their friends and associates what a bunch of useless idiots the museum staff are.

I understand that a lot of museum work is done by volunteers, the same is true down here, and a lot of times they get things wrong.
However an Honest museum will rectify this situation when it is pointed out to them and they have verified the verasity of the information. In fact I used to go riding with a person who is a world acknowledged expert in firearms ( long arms to be precise) and he would happily correct information found in local museums we popped into on club runs. To their credit many of them would invite him back to go through their collections just to ensure their facts were correct and then make efforts to correct the misinformation that they had been propogating.
SO I am sorry if you find this insulting but my original critism stands.
Even worse is the fact that it is quite a reasonable job you have done on the bike.
And my uncle was in stores near the end of hostilities and was full of stories ( again unsubstantiated ) about how he conspired with US troops stationed down here to get the bikes they had been using repatriated to the USA,
Post WWII apparently he exported a lot of WM20's that were supposed to have been decomissioned & destroyed to the USA

email (option): bsansw1@tpg.com.au

I wouldn't advise a visit to the National Motorcycle Museum in England Trevor...It won't do your blood pressure any good...

I was easily able to find fault with many of the exhibits there...I have advised people in the past not to use museum exhibits as a reference point for restorations for exactly that reason....

To make every exhibit in the NMC perfectly correct would take an enormous amount of research and would require parts which in many cases are not easily found or are effectively impossible to find...

However, taking these practical limitations into account I do think that Museums should make it clear that the exhibits should not be used for reference, as many visitors erroneously do exactly that...

In the case of this particular machine it wouldn't have been too hard to make a more accurate job of many aspects of the restoration with little research and I think it's a fair criticism that, for a museum at least, it's not really up to the level of accuracy that might be expected...

More generally though I think it unreasonable for Museums to be expected to produce one 'concourse' machine after another..or to produce one totally accurate display after another...It simply isn't practical..

I suspect if you took a genuine expert (rivet counter) in any subject to a Museum they would find fault...The reason for that is that the rivet counter has probably spent decades acquiring his knowledge of the subject whilst the museum doesn't have that much time to invest...Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Surely it wouldn't have taken much effort to use a paint with a more accurate colour and at least matt. Even their bike that won the war didn't see service in gloss paint.

('Surely it wouldn't have taken much effort to use a paint with a more accurate colour and at least matt.')

('In the case of this particular machine it wouldn't have been too hard to make a more accurate job of many aspects of the restoration ')...

Agreed... ....Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Well, as the proud owner and rider of a civilian dress M20 of 1939/1945 vintage that sports a very anachronistic Givi Top Box who's going to the All British Rally in April(unless washed away in the rains of the Grampians this coming weekend) I need to check with Trevor if I need a special pass to avoid being beaten over the head with said top box :-) as I'm pretty certain it wasn't standard fitment.....

email (option): dickie.bobbie@hotmail.co.uk

we need a picture of the bike with top box

Here you go... I hope!

After my investigations into not pulling full throttle


My jacket is on the top of the top box in this photo.... but the context is nicer!


And while I'm on, I've rekindled my interest in the frame and engine numbers, thoughts please and what has been taken as XM20 116118 and WM20 1277975!





Cheers

Richard

email (option): dickie.bobbie@hotmail.co.uk

Hi Richard
I cant open the photos

email (option): goodbell@ripnet.com

Ah.... I did wonder if it would work!

Let's try again

In Yarraville


BSA gathering at Vintage Rally


My rekindled interest in the chassis and engine numbers, I think the chassis has been over stamped with a later set of numbers, I've seen another example of this somewhere, so I think there's a reason behind it somewhere!

email (option): dickie.bobbie@hotmail.co.uk

Thanks 3 out of 4 looks good

email (option): goodbell@ripnet.com

cheers

Now I've cracked the photo posting I can think about putting up ones from the gearbox bearing replacement. Not a task for today though, time for bed here.

email (option): dickie.bobbie@hotmail.co.uk

Definately a restamp! Font is wrong size and its even been stamped over the paint.

Looks like it was done last week, hope it's not stolen?

No need for a special pass at the All Brit, It's not a concourse rally.

Nice M20 by the way.

You got me wrong there folks.
I do not particulary care if the bike is accurate or not.
This is not important.
Feeding the public a total pile of bull dust is what urks me.
The simple sign seen at a lot of museums "Typical of the era" covers a multitude of sins and tells the viewer that the item might not be 100% accurate.
Secondly I loathe and detest gleaming shinny "remanufactured motorcycles" pretending to be a showroom perfect example of the marque.
If I want to see what a catalogue bike looked like then I will look at a catlogue.
If I want to see what modern 2 pack painting looks like I can go and look at a custom HD.
If I go to a museum I want to see what rolled out of the factory .
Resplendant in the patina comensurate with the age & use of the vehicle
I want to see the pinlinning Mavis did on the production line slapping them out at 200 tanks a day not what some artizan took 4 days to make absolutely perfect because THAT IS NOT WHAT BSA MADE it is a fake interpretation of what BSA could have made if they charged 20 times what they did for new motorcycle.

I have an original model L , H and B2.
None of them will be repainted when they go on the road.
POR make a nice clear coat which will go over the ORIGINAL FACTORY PAINT to prevent any further deterioration and that is it.
So people can see that the pinlinning does not have proper corners and it is open on one side and closed with a blob on the other and when you eyeball the pinlinning you see the line is not strait but has a few waves in it and is not exactly the same width for its entire length, because that is the way Mavis painted in in 1927.
Any parts that I will have to make to keep it running will be cleary visiable as an aftermarket part because it is not what Fred turned up on an auto lathe in 1926 in 3.5 minutes, it is what Trevor made in 2010, on the 3rd attempt of several hours each.

You may recall a few days ago there was a lot of Poo Har Har because some one painted a M20 in "the wrong colours" and a lot of critism was thrown at the owner by other owners who are riding equally fake M20's in my opinion.
However as I have said 1,000,000 times, "it is your bike & you can paint it whatever colour that floats your boat" but to call any bike on here "ORIGINAL" is a bold faced lie as they are all "REMANUFACTURED TO A HIGHER DEGREE OF FINISH THAN WHEN THEY LEFT THE FACTORY" Now they might be remanufacured to near origional facory specification but they are not and never will be "original".

And if you have a look at members bikes you will see a nic little pickie of my M20 as I ride it which is as I bought it which is as the second owner bought it, resplendant in its thin worn chrome on the obsolete Empire Star tank, civilian oil tank, plunger front & rear guards and Empire Star wheels.
The only difference is the extra long rack I made because in the old days cars were not allowed at ABR's period so we had to bring in everything on our bikes and there is a lot more stone chips. Currently it wears an aftermarket shortie muffler because that was all I had on hand that fitted after the original one fell off. I have a nice stainless headder and fishail to go on when I rebuild the gear box which will give a bit more boot space between the muffer & kickstart.

Is it original NO is it an Authentic M20, YES because that is te way the original owner rode it in the 40"s 50's & 60's. The second owner had it for 12 years and never rode it as he was continually posted OS so I got it in the late 80's. I have meet the original owner ( well he said he was ) at a 50's fair when we were doing a static display .
He said , "every one was riding old army motorcyces & I wanted some thing different" the dealer was having a clear out of old obsolete spare parts & he picked up the tank for 5 shillings and the wheels for 2/6 each so for 10 bob extra he could ride a "new bike". He got the rest of the chroming done a bit latter after a prang along with the plunger guards, from a wrecker.

I was one of the volunteer who refused to touch the James Craig because the private owners who were trying to cash in on the bicentennial electric welded hull plates to the hull to get it up for display on Sydney harbour.
They went broke, quite rightly, and eventually the wrong steel plates were replaced with the correct iron plates and we happily went along and hot rivited them into place, two men on the head dolly, another holding the set and two more swinging hammers. We could have used pnumatic hammers which would have made the job a lot easier, quicker & cheaper, but all those rivets were set bu hand when the ship was built and to heir credit the historic boat restorere set each and every one buy hand in the restoration, which can be called a restoration because ti was done with original tools by the original method, right down the the paint, paintbrushes and pitch. As far as I know the only departure was the use of hand winches as they could not get their hands on a steam powered derrick

email (option): bsansw1@tpg.com.au

Hi Trevor

Well put! I'll let you know how the weekend goes.

Richard

email (option): dickie.bobbie@hotmail.co.uk

Yes, in a perfect world there would be lots of unaltered, unrestored bikes in museums for the public to look at...

Unfortunately there aren't enough bikes like that out there to provide for one museum let alone all of them....

The NMM in England has examples of bikes from most of the British manufacturers, spread through the decades from the beginning to the end of the production of British motorcycles...

Within that number there are also limited production racing bikes, prototypes and examples of machines from the smaller manufacturers that are exceptionally rare....

It is a fantasy to imagine that the NMM could find complete original examples of all these machines with a convenient degree of patina that left them ideally suited to display in a museum...Or that they could restore machines using all the original tools, materials, techniques and components...They simply don't have the time or resources to do that to the hundreds of machines they hold in their stocks...

The fact is the bulk of the machines on display have been restored, an activity that was necessary to make incomplete/altered machines into a reasonable representation of what they were originally....They can't after all be 'original'....

I have visited the NMM a number of times and think it is a great resource to illustrate the British industries contribution to motorcycle production and development....I also realise that in putting on such a display compromises to the 'perfect' situation are inevitable....

It will always be possible to criticise museums for their displays and in some instances the criticism is fully justified.
However, an appreciation of the compromises forced onto museums by the realities of the situation has to be accepted if we are to have museums at all...

How any individual decides to present his own machine is entirely up to him and another subject altogether..

I have bought numerous motorcycles that were beyond use and have therefore had to be restored...The alternative would have been to scrap them or break up what was left...

Personally I don't want, unaltered, a machine that has been subjected to the previous owners neglect, alterations and bodgery.... and don't regard a bike that has rust, faded paint, incorrect parts and a leavening of replica/new bits to be wearing some sort of 'badge of honour' or to have any more credibility than a well restored machine...

Rather I regard it as ready for that much needed restoration...or should I say the next phase of its on going history...??...Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

I have the 'Sammy Miller' museum, virtually on my doorstep. It's a place I frequent regularly, if only for a bacon butty. To the most part his collection of probably 200 bikes that cover most of the 20th century are restored to a brand new ex show room condition, including the bikes that are on loan to him. Personally I think his workshop guys do a fabulous job and to my knowledge every bike they restore is run at least around his property and even sometimes on road runs. The paintwork is (or was) outsourced to a guy in the New Forest who unbelievably is (or was) a full time lorry driver. He also has a wing full of racers, some obviously one off's.

There are obviously mistakes, either by accident or on purpose if the right parts are not available, which to the most part I wouldn't be able to tell.

However his very small collection of WW2 military bikes are abysmal And of course it's the one subject I do know a little bit about.... Hand painted and with all the WD and correct parts missing and wrong size and type of tyres that are often flat!!

I mentioned to him a good few years ago that I was willing to help to do something about them.....But it fell on deaf ears. My offer wouldn't be available these days....Shame really and I put his strange reaction down to breathing too much 2 stroke fumes.

Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

('Shame really and I put his strange reaction down to breathing too much 2 stroke fumes.')...

Or being an arrogant b*****d, which he is in my experience....

I think his military bikes are like they are as it reflects his own interests and that makes you wonder why he has included them in his collection...

I'm still coming to terms with the fact he DELIBERATELY painted the Norton sv twin military prototype in Norton silver...Enough said I think...

I think your observations reflect what museums have to deal with in restoring and displaying multiple machines and deviations are inevitable...

However, creating history, as with the sv Norton and another one of Sammys exhibits I have personal knowledge of is not really acceptable and beyond the remit of any museum...Further a reasonable minimum standard of accuracy for all exhibits in any museum should be applied in my view....Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Trevor, for what it's worth, you and I are quite on the same track, without a lot of comparing notes. My bottom line is: There is no plaque in the Museum describing the displayed WD M20 to the public yet because I haven't had enough info to accurately describe what the public is actually being shown in my resto.
Better, or, more difficult yet, is the fact that we have been loaned another, running, riding, as-found WD M20 to let the public compare how one basically looked "restored" next to one straight out of the field. I think, and apparently so do Museum visitors, it's an eye-catching display amid trucks, jeeps, Half-track and other big imposing wheeled vehicles. Motorcycles are turning out to be a pretty good draw considering Americans didn't grow up riding motorcycles. The Museum wants plaques, and I have held them off til now for the above reasons.

So I have somewhere to go now for this info.

But if someone calls me a liar to my face, they'll guaranteed get their ass kicked. Period.

jerry Greer

email (option): jrgreer5565@sbcglobal.net

It is an age old problem for museums as found or as we think it should look.
If you went into the British Museum and lookes at the Pathanon marbles that some one had "just restored" with a nice fresh coat of 2 pack, you would not be impresses or walked into the potery section and saw all the red figure or white figure vases & amphoria's repainted with powder coat again you would be left wondering if they wee real or some copy some one knocked up last week.The term "RESTORED" is wrong if the original finish gets tampered with or any of the mechanical items are altered in this case it is REMANUFACTURED not RESTORED.

If any of you are in the museum societies loop then you will be familiar with this arguement.

As for you Jerry, as previously stated there is no problems with the bike not being 100% authentic, I am not a nut & bolt biggot. When the bullets were flying I have no doubt the "correct part" was the first one that came to hand which would work. No one bothered to check if it was the correct year for the serial number of the bike.
However the blurb linked to in the first post MUST BE CHANGED if you or the museum you are associated with are to be taken seriously.
No one will crucify you or them if it reads that the information was not readily available at time of preparation for exhibition, which is a truth as you had to seek it out and did not know where to look, however the "None were printed " line has to go.

Over 200,000 US GI's passed through Australia.
While here, most used local vehicles, WM20's and Landrovers / Daimlers etc as the USA production was used principally for combat use thus the large number af assult grade Jeep parts that continue to surface from time to time.
So these peplle will know that is not correct as will every one who has ever done military service as they know there are instructions issued for everything, right down to the placement of dunny paper in the latrines let alone a mechanical device.


I assume the USA is similar to here.
We have thousands of local historical societies with small local museums run by 100% volunteers with little to no expertise about the items in the collections. These are oft not much more than the contents of an estate beheaved to them by a local identity so the disclaimers "typical of the period" and "as used by the family" or "as documented by the donator" etc etc etc get used extensively to let Joe publc that the providence of the displayed item has not been verrified so it might not be quite as it left the factory or in fact actually true. We all understand this, and we all understand that the museum might not have the resources to verrify the providence of all of it exhibits but to use an excuse that it never existed just because we have never seen it does not wash.

email (option): bsansw1@tpg.com.au

Going a little out on a tangent but relevant for purposes of illustration, the complexities of decision making on restoration approach options is very well illustrated at the National Trust property Ightham Mote. This is/was(?) a wonderful Elizabethan manor house that got neglected and forgotten, providentially, because it was never subjected to a major Georgian makeover. However it was patched up in the 19th Century to stop bits falling off and in the 20th Century, it was made more habitable by an American owner with rooms redecorated, etc.. The NT took over and found the usual major structural problems to rectify to stop the place falling into its moat (there is an excellent Tony Robinson film of this), so basically the roof and top floor were completely dismantled and rebuilt with new timbers where required. It is now complete......and essentially restored back to the state the NT found it.......ie with 20th Century makeover overlying Tudor underpinnings and fabric. And this is down to the tiniest detail of 15th century remains, hidden under the modern wall plasters, etc! They could have restored it as an "authentic" Tudor manor house, no doubt, with straw on the floor of the Great Hall and staff dressed up in period gear, etc. But they didn't.......they had to rebuild to save it but put it back the way they found it warts and all! As I say.......a great film......"The Ten Million Pound House". Not sure if it helps with restoring an M20, but it touches a lot on what Trevor is talking about. And its a very nice ride out to visit the place!

So what is a museum going to do with this?....Or anyone else that wants to keep or use it?....

It's about time to accept that in the real world rebuilding/remanufacturing or restoration (whatever you want to call it) sometimes HAS to be done....

This is a bike of which only 7 or 8 examples exist.

It would make a good museum exhibit apart from the fact that most people looking at it would have no idea of what it looked like originally...

I would suggest it is too much of a 'stretch' that this could be exhibited 'as is' in a vehicle museum...unless it was the 'Wreck Museum' in Normandy... ...
I have rarely seen anything like this in any museum and I'm not sure the public would be interested in viewing a building full of this type of thing if they could....

It can never be original again but a restoration would give a better impression of how it looked when new..or at least when complete...



The world is full of 'restored' vehicles and if it weren't the scrapyards would be full of more scrap...(I'll use the word restored for convenience, I'm sure most people will understand what I mean by that)

The fact is that large numbers of 'as found' vehicles are beyond practical use. Are they all to be scrapped because restoration is considered to be such a crime by some?
Complete survivors that can be used and might warrant preservation are relatively rare, particularly when considering the early days of vehicle manufacture...That is one reason why there are so many restored vehicles....

There are unrestored original vehicles, unrestored altered vehicles, unrestored derelict vehicles, customised vehicles, modified vehicles and restored vehicles and they all have their place...

The question is what to do with the bike pictured?...Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Only 7 or 8 examples exist? What is it? Looks fairly common with the magdyno and that.

Ian

It's hard isn't it. We'd love a world of well used, and maintained along the way things - from motorcycles to radios (the wait for them to warm up, the crackles and pops when they're working - apply equally to either perhaps). There are some of these, and the people who have access and use of them are very lucky. For the rest then creating something out of what's available is still worthwhile. There's obviously the challenge of doing that, finding dimensions, selecting the materials and finishes, etc. The end results might be a near or far from what the bikes might have looked like when it arrived at the shop; but that maybe doesn't matter.

I think, somewhere in the thread, Trevor made the point about things claiming to be what they're not. That's is somehow important, not in terms of whether the result is rivet counter correct, but simply whether anyone pretends it is or says "this is it what it is, could be right or wrong".

I'm sure that your intention is to make a good job of creating motorcycle from the collection of parts you've got which makes you happy and is appreciated by others. I'm sure you'll be the first to say "Do you think I got this part right?" or perhaps "I know this isn't quite as it should be but it means I can ride the bike!".

So how long before it's running?

Cheers

Richard

email (option): dickie.bobbie@hotmail.co.uk

It's a 1941 BSA WB30 which I rebuilt a while back now...Approx. 200-250 were built and few remain now...

I posted the picture purely to illustrate the fact that many vehicles are well beyond the point of being fit for use or display and either have to be rebuilt or lost ultimately...

Here is the finished article..I spent over 2 years just researching the history and specs. of this and other versions of the WB30s before rebuilding it.....

Opinions on what has been done to it will vary but it has been saved for the future....Its overall specification is pretty accurate, the finish rather too good for some I know, but that's the way I like them when they are rebuilt...Personally I was happy with the end result...Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

And you should be very happy that is a job very well done. would you like to come to Canada and restore my wng

I could always put a couple of candles in the shed for when it drops below -20

email (option): goodbell@ripnet.com

I'm very close to Ian's views on this. I faced the question with my 16H which had some very original areas but was missing so much and had been coated with a thick black oil-based paint layer.

I actually looked at it for a few years in the garage as I collected parts and had a distinct feeling that it should be in a museum as a demonstration of how equipment left by the BEF in 1940 had survived German occupation and sixty years in private hands, but....the existing museums have more than they can display and are facing falling visitor numbers. Who is going to pay to look at something that most motorcyclists would hardly give a second glance on a jumble stall ?

In the end, I had to face the fact that I'm a motorcyclist who has always tried to maintain his machinery in the best possible condition and my bikes are first and foremost functioning machines so anything which interferes with that is a negative point.

My interest in military history led me to rebuilding it as a tribute to those who rode them at the time. I may not have been 100% successful but my intention was to build a bike which someone who served in 1940 would instantly recognise and be unable to find fault with.

I only know of one or two other catalogue specification 1940 WD16Hs which I feel makes mine more relevant as it is rather than as a basket case. I'm fully aware that what I have created is a 'period illusion' but do also feel that it is a 'restoration' as it has been restored to a functioning machine with the appearance (including hand-brushed signs and disruptive) that it had seventy-six years ago.

It is all play-acting but as far as I'm concerned, my motorcycle is a restored BEF example, given the fact that it has to perform and function as originally intended.

We are getting a long way of the original topic but there is a problem with the modern tendency to use the ultimate superlaive to describe things that it should not be applied to.
No one ever gets a common cold any more, we all have the flu or a higher order of flu like asian flue, Spanish flue or birdflue, etc even worse is the man flu.

Vehicles get repaired, refurbished, rebuilt, remanufactured or restored.

The top of the tree is restored but there is not a bike on this list that is really restored.
Most would be refurbished or if a lot of work was done remanufactured.

Because to restore is to RETURN TO ORIGINAL.
This means FURNACE BAKED ENAMEL on all painted parts, not 2 pack, not powder coat, full vitrious enamel as was done at the factory and can still be done, but not by the home enthusiast.
Real dull cadmium plating on the unplated parts, not zinc not ZnAl synthetic Cd.
Please note, I am not critising the quality of the work done, a lot of it is excellent BUT NONE OF IT IS RESTORATION.

Back when I first started going to car & bike shows, people were honest and would describe a vehicle as being repaired or repainted and usually specify which brand of paint & what method was used to apply it.

RESTORATION was only ever used to describe vehicles that were pulled apart then rebuilt to original specification using original materials and generally only done by apprentices as part of their training.
However MINE has to be better than YOURS so I feel perfectly entitled to describe MY bike with a higher order term than you used so MY bike has to be RESTORED because it is better than yours.

There is an enormous difference between LOOKS like to original finish and IS the original finish.
It does not matter how good you try to get a colour match, it will never look exactly like vitrious enamel unless it is vitrious enamel.
And then we get to powder coatings which are around 200 times thicker than the dipped and baked finish origionally used on frames so it even looks nothing like the original finishsh, So how can you honestly call any bike with powder coating on it ORIGINAL when it is even visually different ?
Refurbished , yes Repainted , Yes but RESTORED definately not.

You lot go bannanas if some one fits a bolt that was wrong for the year which you have to go over the bike with a magnifing glass to see yet happly accept a powder coated frame or tank for that matter that you can see is wrong from 100 foot away.
Again there is nothing wrong with Powder Coating or 2 pack if that is what you want to put on your bike. It is your bike & you are allowed to coat it with any finish in any colour that tickles your fancy but it is 100% WRONG to call it restored when clearly it is not a RESTORATION.

Next time you go to a bike show with a line of maroon B series bikes, stand back 20' and you will have no troube telling which bikes are still wearing original factory paint and which bikes have been resprayed.

As for the WB 30 .
A very nice job for which you should be justifiably proud of but when displayed it should be described as " Reconstructed from a Ruin" along with the original photos thus there is no question as to what Joe Public is looking at. The high quality work of Mr Write, attempting to make it as close to factory as paoosible but not the work of a BSA production line worker.

email (option): bsansw1@tpg.com.au

I know, COMPLETELY off topic, but it is about restoration...
There was an interesting discussion about another ‘restoration’ , at another level between the French and the Dutch: the paintings of Rembrandt of a young couple: Maerten Soolmans and Oopjen Coppit, sold by Eric de Rothschild perhaps he was lacking wall space.
Both countries agreed to split the bill of € 160.000.000 (you can have a LOT of M20 and 16H for that....).
The paintings were in a sorry state; the French would only wipe the dust off, and the Dutch would go a lot farther, namely remove several layers of yellow and brown varnish mixed with centuries of Rothschild cigar and pipe smoke. Fortunately, after heated debate, the Dutch were allowed to do the restoration, and after that, the paintings would switch country every year or so.
Now, how would the membership describe this: is it a restoration, or whatever...?

I don't think we should get lost in arguments about the precise language we use to describe what we are doing....

I have always argued that once a bike has been 'rebuilt' (or whatever term is chosen), it will no longer be as it was and never can be...
Anything that has been refinished is no longer as it was when produced but is only a representation of it, whatever methods are used to achieve the end result...1940 paint was applied once, in 1940..It's now 2016...

The main purpose of our efforts is to save what remains and a rebuild does that...It also makes something unserviceable into something that can be used..

I am certainly not a 'nut and bolt' rivet counter..One look at my WB30 with, for example, its stainless fasteners makes that fact obvious...

I am happy to make these deviations because I know the result is only a representation of the original vehicle and I make NO claims of 'originality'..However, I've got nothing against anyone who tries to make their own representation that bit closer to the original specification than my own...

The WB30 has been rebuilt fully and could be used as a reliable motorcycle because of that...Further the structure of the bike is as well protected as it can be by a good paintjob...

When the WB30 was new it was as BSA intended it to be...and that is what a full overhaul seeks to represent with varying degrees of success...

My point, which I will make again, is that a basket case must be rebuilt unless it is to be broken up or scrapped....
Doing that is not a crime against humanity whatever methods are used and I really can't understand the attitude that seems to prevail that doing so is some sort of sin...

The results of these efforts will vary depending on the skills and resources deployed and the personal choices of whoever carries it out... and that just has to be accepted...

If anyone has an unrestored, serviceable bike that they can use then best of luck to them...
As an example of how idiotic the idea is that everything should be left 'unmolested' just take another look at the pre restoration WB30 picture...

Is that 'history' in all it's splendour which must be preserved?...I think not, but it is where the history of that WB30 led to...

If used, a bikes history is not a static thing and to think it can be so is incorrect...

Any bike which has not yet been rebuilt may not have arrived at the point where it no longer functions but if used it will...That is the inevitable result of using a machine ....

What then?....

I am an enthusiast for 'rebuilds' and 'restoration' as it 'restores' things to full usage....

The problem with 'history preservers' as I see it is that they are very selective about what to preserve...Just so much patina on an unrestored bike is good...Too much is not acceptable...Certain modifications or incorrect parts are OK, others not..and of course a leavening of new parts, not original parts, are acceptable to keep it running...

However,if that M20 was sprayed purple and chopped in the 1970s THAT part of its glorious past will never be preserved....

It seems to me that with that view of the world to criticise a rebuilt bike that uses modern paint smacks somewhat of hypocrisy...Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

If you have a M20 or a Rembrandt is not important but your attitude to it and yourself is.
Richard

If you have a M20 or a Rembrandt is not important but your attitude to it and yourself is.
Richard

Ian,
Some time in the future we need to have a debate, particularly if it can be aranged somewhere that sells brown liquids in pint jars.

Weather a vehicle gets rebuilt to original specifications or kept in as found condition depends upon the provanance of the vehicle and weather its history is considered to be more significant than its condition.
A very difficult decision that causes conservators nightmares when acquiring exhibits.

As for privately owned vehicles as was stated previously, it is totally up to the owner as it is their bike so they can paint it purple with pink spots, put a 16" x 10" rear wheel on, cofin tank and 20" overs on the front.
Just so long as they don't go presenting it as "original".
Should the bike in this mode gain some historical significance then at a latter date it is quite reasonable for it to be "returned to it's 2016" apearence,and if the same paint and materials it is quite justified to call it "restored to the 2016 condition" .

That Rembrant example is a better one than a lot would believe.
Rembrant was a master painter but he was a crap chemist and the oil he mixed his pigmnets into was not stable so went very dark with age, very quickly.
When new they were almost as vibrant as a Gughan and this can be verrified by remaining personnal written accounts of the paintings when new.
However we know them as dark somber almost overbearing and for years lazy art historians have been eating out on totally wrong analysis of Rembrants painting, life moods and meanings based on the qualities of the paintings as they exist today. Not as they were painted.

Big debates in the art world as to weather the paintings should be refreshed to show their original intended colours or left as is.
Intriguing arguements going right down the variations in thickness of the paint signifing the twist of the wrist as the paint was applied.
This comes up from time to time and splits the art world every time. particularly when a painting is being repatriated to a former owner.

Would you call the Mona Lisa, Mona Lisa if it had just undergone a "bare canvas restoration" ? .
If not , why not ?
And if not why does this not apply to a motorcycle ?

If I brush painted my M20 while fully assembled with desert sand, slapped a blue & whits signals patch on one side and an 1st AIF on the other, would you consider it to be restored ?
If not why not because that is exactly how they were used by the Aust 1st AIF in Africa, underside of tank still in kakahi top & sides in sand. And no C number.

There are 8 members on this forum whose bikes wear Australian contract plates.
Are they "restored" or "faked" and some of them are wearing the full lower rear guard and number plate holder AFAIK because I was asked to send over the complete assembly.
As an aside WM20's used on NSW roads after 1965 needed to have the rear light centered so a couple of shops fitted latter plunger civilian lower mudguards assemblies as a rivet on fitment.
Thus when they closed down a lot of the old ones came onto the market.
No one wanted them . I can not resist a bargan and 8 other owners are now happy, every one wins. But are the bikes original ?

If the arguement goes that they have been returned to "factory specification appearence" then what about the insignias ? don't think any left the factory with batallion markings on them and if they are in frontline markings then very few would have been catalogue correct for very long. A little different with home land bikes as they had the luxary to leave a bike in the shop till the right part arrived, not quite the same when you had despatches to be delivered and the rear stand bolt fell out, the brake lever broke & handle bars bent.

And if the DR rode the bike with a spent 303 cartridge hammered into the stand hole, should we remove it when we "restore the bike" or leave it there as a testiment to the courage, bravery & inginuity of the DR who rode it ?

Again not quite as significant with private bikes but essential that bikes on public display are correct right down to te finish of the fasteners and if not it is imperative that this be clearly notified so Joe Public is aware that the frame for instance had sharp corners where the lugs were furnace brased on because once powede coated they wery well could be mistaken for welded on from a distance. And Joe Public does not know that electric welding was not used for another 20 years.

email (option): bsansw1@tpg.com.au