Hi Everyone
I have had for a long time now a rough James ml and having found your forum because of the wm20 i recently brought, i thought i might ask the question about the Indian made tinware available on flea bay.
I have never seen any old tinware available for the bike on my travels through shows or ebay so i am considering buying the repro tank and mudguards available.

But i believe that i could just be better setting fire to my money as i have read enough about the quality of parts coming out of India, to suggest that i might just be better off going and buying a sheet of .6mm and beating a tank out of it myself.
Anyone here brought either of these bit's from over there?
regards Grahame

Terry Roberts 'Metal Magic' does a range of good quality repro parts for the ML and Flea as he has both for patterns. He can of course make anything else to pattern.

I have his email address but better to phone him as I find you sometimes have to phone him to tell him he has email 01189 731631.

Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

just to say that all the tinware,forks etc that i have purchased from India has been of exellent quality,much better than stuff from that flying insect emporium in suffolk!

Well I think you have been lucky with your purchases! Most of what I have seen from India has been poor castings and often of the wrong material, badly jigged, poorly welded and very often a combination of all three.

They have a knack of keeping things going and on the road and God bless them for that. But that is of no interest to me for my bikes. Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

You can't have purchased good quality forks from India.. unless the only criteria for that statement is that it was actually possible to fit them and they didn't break once fitted...

I'm afraid that isn't the definition of a good quality product...

I have closely examined two sets of Indian girder forks and frankly the standard of engineering was appalling in both cases..In no way do they bear comparison with the originals which they are supposed to replicate...

I'll have to see something far better than that before I'm convinced the Indians have 'raised their game'....Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

If you do a google search for INDIAN MADE GIRDER FORKS there is lots of information on other forums etc a iot of it negative it might be of help to any one if they are considering buying them.

Umm as i feared then! Thanks to Ron for the tip off of Terry, i shall give him a buzz in the new working year.
Grahame

I must be lucky then cause all my stuff is great! Even my brothers 2006 Enfield bullet is still going strong and giving 90 mpg. so stuff the naysayers!

I don't think you can compare genuine modern Royal Enfield parts that are made under more stringent factory conditions with the repro parts we are talking about. Often made in back alley workshops or by a Walla sat cross legged in the sand.

You could very well take a chance on tin ware parts that look close enough and can be fettled to fit. But I would not want to risk structural or mechanical parts from what I have seen. Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

i think everyone knows my opinion of Indian stuff with the 3HW rebuild (if you don't know - its not good!).

However ......... i've been pondering the difference between my NOS Triumph 3HW forks and the removed Indian ones ............
Particularly as i intend for this thing to hopefully exceed 70/80 mph (Tiger 80 territory)

The NOS are VERY lightweight - and judging by the disposable standards/attitudes of the period, are not likely to have been made of 'good' quality materials, they are certainly not well made!
The most worrying aspect is the incredibly lightweight malleable-iron (steel ?) cast lugs holding them together.

The Indian stuff is more crude i.e. thicker cast lugs, heavier gauge steel tubing, etc.
Which leads to the question - is low quality modern materials/techniques any better/worse than 50 year old stuff, made at the time of low skilled labor and low quality materials ?

We now have three Ariels and a 16H, with Indian forks (they really do keep this quiet from me!!!) - all aggressively ridden for the last 2/3 years and apart from one set being ruined by cak-handed mechanic'ing - none have yet failed.

A for the tinware ....... including a couple of tanks purchased from Indian - its rough, doesn't fit and if my 3HW is anything to go by, covered in 2mm of filler to make it look, ok.

Triumphs were always lightweight when compared to some of the other major manufacturers... Edward Turner consistently designed bikes like this.

Most of the time the end product, after initial development, worked fine...

If like me you have owned BSAs for years EVERYTHING on a Triumph seems flimsy... ...

I can't say I share your views on the material quality used in original parts though...Material specifications were governed by British Standards, produced to a consistent specification to ensure conformity and materials were selected by designers based on the requirements...

I would argue that British motorcycle designers generally seem to have been conversant with those requirements. My experience indicates that it is very rare to find material failures, even in stressed parts...

Can the same be said of the materials and designers in India?

As far as how 'well made' they are, Triumph parts differ very little from BSA, Brough Superior or any other parts...They were the typical result of the mass manufacturing methods used at that time...

As such general tolerances on the less critical parts were 'wide' by todays standards, but don't fall into the trap of thinking it was all like that...

I can quote plenty of original tolerances that were pretty 'tight', even if not to 'modern' tolerances...

As far as Indian manufactured parts are concerned how good anyone might consider them to be is based entirely on the criteria applied to make that assessment...You could argue that if they fit and don't break they are OK...

However, material specification, manufacturing tolerances, manufacturing methods, heat treatment methods, brazing and welding techniques and standards and quality control standards are all things that would be considered by an engineer in making the assessment of whether they are well manufactured parts, of good quality and if they will perform predictably over a number of 'identical' components and perhaps more importantly over extended periods of use....
After all, material failures are commonly fatigue failures that occur after repetitive loadings...

If the only criteria is 'it will fit and function' then a huge and undesirable variation in the features listed above is possible and can be found in Indian manufactured parts...
IMO I don't think it wise to base a conclusion about the 'quality' of parts on the lowest possible criteria....

I think it has to be accepted that at best, parts manufactured currently in India are of dubious specification and unpredictable accuracy and performance....That is a simple fact so why try to pretend it's not?....Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Triumph 3HW forks were not made by Triumph! They are 'Webb' forks bought in by Triumph after the loss of their factory in Coventry, and an aid to get production well under way again at their new temporary site in Warwick. Webb supplied forks for various machines and the 3HW forks are near identical to those fitted to the well regarded Velocette models of the time. I'm sure there quality can not be disputed. Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

The 3HW wasn't built in Warwick though was it?..I understood it was a new model introduced after Meriden was built ...Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Ian as far as I can tell, the Meriden factory opened some time in 1942 which means they were at Warwick for well over a year. The last of the 3SW's were supplied in Sept 41 and the very first of the 3HW's were built at Warwick before full and proper production was resumed at Meriden. Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

The first 3HW were made at the Warwick site,they were first announced to the motorcycle press in early 1941 and are shown fitted with Triumphs own made girder forks,by the time meriden opened they were being fitted with webb type girders,probably due down to cost the webb forks were just over £1 cheaper than triumphs own forks,these were used until the end of the war,the steering damper was deleted during 1944.They also changed over to tin chain cases,tin oil pump cover,and steel brake shoes at meriden.

Well now we are getting close.
As for the OP's question it is stupid & frankly racist.
You would never ask "how good are the parts made in the UK" because you know very well it would bepend uon WHO made them yet you happily lump every producer of parts that resides in continental India as a single entity, which is obvious idotic.
India still makes motorcycles there for some factories or even individual artizans must be producing acceptiable quality parts.

So just like in the UK , where all the smart nice white people live, some parts out of Indian factoies are good while othere are temporary land fill.

The trick is finding out which ones are what and there are several relatively easy ways to do this.
1) Is it the absolute cheapest example of this part available in the world ?
Yes = garbage for the greedy & selfish
No = could be good

2) dose the part have a brand name / manufacturers name or serial number on it and or on the packaging ?
No = garbage for the stupid
Yes = could be good

3) does the vendor have a real physical identifiable presence ie a shop or warehouse
No = consignment seller of trash for the greedy , Selfish & stupid
Yes = could be a good part

4) Is it possible to contact the vendor, other than via evilbay / alibaba etc ?
No = internet vendor and trash for the greedy selfish & stupid
Yes - could be a good part.

5) what is the quality and accuracy of the information supplied at point of sale ? Does the vendor seem to actually know what they are selling, ie which models it fits,
No = "make me 30 that look exactly like this" junk
Yes = Could be good product.

And finally check the vendors feed back rating and particularly the negative feed back

email (option): bsansw1@tpg.com.au

['The trick is finding out which ones are what and there are several relatively easy ways to do this']..

The answers to the second half of all your points 1 to 5 is 'could be good', so that doesn't actually determine whether the parts are good or not...

There are only two ways to find that out...

1)Buy them and see what you get...

2)Ask someone who has bought them and see what their experience was...

The original poster was asking specifically about James ML parts so wasn't lumping all Indian manufactured parts together...

He was asking for the opinions of others who might have bought James parts, which is hardly stupid...and please...none of this 'racist' PC rubbish...There is obviously no racist undertone or intent to the posting...Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

"much better than stuff from that flying insect emporium in suffolk!"

email (option): jmmycmullen@aol.com

I am going to dissagree here, sorry if it offends.
There is no such thing as "Indian James parts"
There is parts made for James motorcycles that are made by a VARIETY of people who are resident in India.
The idea that Every James part made in India is of the same quality is frankly RACIST and I am not PC in any way shape or form.
However people seem to be happy to lump every manufacturer in India , China, Mexico , Brazil etc together as if "all dem black fellas look & work the same to me"

Again no one would ask the same question of James parts made in the UK.
You would ask about Armours parts, Wassel parts etc.

If the OP ha asked if the James parts sold by Poopoo Catchu are good quality then that would be fine but he did not and there for implied that they were all the same.
Sorry if a few find this challenges their view of themselves ( or me for that matter ) but some times things really need to be challenged

email (option): bsansw1@tpg.com.au

Trevor
You need to do some research before assuming i haven't, All the advertised tanks available on ebay by four "different" vendor's are the same photos, ie the same tank ie every picture, so no difference in manufacturer. Take a look and notice everyone has the same stain at the gear selector area.

Also if you read my reply to Ron about the heads up of a manufacture in England, then you will note that i didn't know of this company.
If i had known, i would still be asking the question but the opening headline would have been "opinions on the better manufacturer of the reproduction parts for the James ml".

At the momment i cant justify paying over 300 Euros for a 2 gallon tank offered of Indian manufacturer that could turn out to be a heap of turd.
I don't give a s@%*t who where or what makes the part as long as it is fit for purpose and not a rip off.
I purchased an indian made mudguard for a royal enfield crusdaer that was terrible in every way and iv brought uk made reproduction parts that are equally rubbish so i dont want to get burned again
As Ian said it was a simple question about a specific branded and remanufactured part, and to be honest no one has actually been able to offer incite into these specific parts.

If you want get pc about things some of the comments above surprised even me so don't think that i ment any offence.

If this is the way this forum works, with repilies like yours i wont be frequenting here again.
Best regards Grahame

Oh happy new year to those that have helped me with my other project.

Hi Grahame...This isn't the way this forum usually works..

That was why I made the point I did..

It is very unusual for anyone here to make a directly personal response, whatever their view of the world may be..It is one of the generally accepted 'unwritten rules' of this open forum...

Stick with it, you will find this forum to be a very good place to visit on the whole with a large number of knowledgeable and helpful contributors...Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Grahame, I have been following this string with interest as I always keep an eye on what is being offered by Indian suppliers. Let me chime in with Ian by saying that I fail to see how in any way any reasonable person could interpret your question and the subsequent posts as racist, with the exception, perhaps, of the person trying to raise this non-issue! Ignore such stuff; this site hosts generally one of the best modulated fora on the net.

Greaham,

Firstly as stated previously it is not meant as a personnal attack and you might note I did not call you racist I said it was, & still is a racist question. Some thing we are all capable of, including myself.

As to your dilema with the James tank, this is probably the wrong place to ask.
This forum is specifically for MW20's ,military vehicles to a lesser extent and old bikes very slightly.

I would suggest you rephrase the question in a mannar rather akin to your responce and post it on the C10, C11 C12 forum where thers are more enthusiasts of small commuter motorcycles than here and from what I have read on there quite a few James owners.

Just the same as in the UK, USA or Australia for that matter, tank makers residing in India can not afford a lot of dead stock on their shelves just in case the odd person should happen past who might want one.
From what I have seen most keep a few very fast moving or very high profit tanks on hand and the rest are made to order.
Thus all who advertise are using the same "showroom" photos of the more obscure items they can make to order just so there is no amberguity over what you are buying.

A relativly poor metal worker like myself once knocked up a stainless steel A 10 tank in 5 days using a concrete & plaster mold mould of my old tank so an experienced metal worker should be able to knock one up in a day or so.

Almost no internet vendor actually has all of the stock they are selling.
They post images from their suppliers and order in stock as things get sold.
I found this out the hard way when looking for a supplier of the two plain wire retainers fitted to an M20 gearchange.
Found a dozen or more vendors who were selling them, and ended up getting a refund from all of them as none were able to supply as the manufacturer they were all drawing stock from no longe made the snap rings but they were still in his catalogue.

Or if you care to list the vendors who are "selling" the tanks then members who have purchased from that vendor can relate their experiences but an open ended question like the one you asked is going to get the same response.
Some will tell you the "indian tanks" were excellent, dropped right in and looked fantastic while others will tell you "Indian tanks" are all total garbage, did not fit properly and after a short while leaked like a seive.

email (option): bsansw1@tpg.com.au

Trevor in response to your statement above. This site was indeed dedicated to the WM20 when Henk started it. But the forum was changed about 10 years ago to cover all WD bikes
(see the heading at the top).

I'm also a long time member of the 'C' site you mentioned and in my opinion this would still be the best place to ask questions about a James ML.......No harm in asking around of course!

Here is mine with fortunately, not many repro parts, but the exhaust, toolbox and centre stand came from Terry at Metal Magic Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Well there you go.
Hiding in plane view.
Probably been here 15+ years and never oticed the forum had changed names.

email (option): bsansw1@tpg.com.au

Ron...is that a bomb strapped to the wall behind your bike?

email (option): glenn_mullan@postmaster.co.uk

Yes Glenn! It's a 'Time Bomb' Keeps me alert! Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

I could definitely do with one of those Ron! Only problem is the local constabulary might treat it as a suspect device try a controlled explosion on it round here.

email (option): glenn_mullan@postmaster.co.uk