Okay, a "Plug" here but an invaluable source today..........and I never recommend anyone who I wouldn't trust........

I dropped in to see Terry and team today, as I do most weeks, at the workshop in Eversley, Hants...........trades under the name "Metal Magic" or "Heritage"........

Many on this forum may have sampled his work in the past via various means and Terry has supplied many dealers whom we all may have used in the past..........

I've known Terry as a friend for nearly 30 years............he is now over 60 but supported by his son, nephew and other long-term employees...........he is perhaps one of the last "old school" professionals and family businesses still forging ahead in today's world with old-school traditional metal-working...........

Basically, they are a sheet-metal business but make or can repair everything for classic vehicles and military motorcycles.........this includes casting and metal spinning...........previous work has included extensive work on German half-track prime-movers, jeeps, and all manner of motorcycles..............Terry, as an old school metal worker can make and/or repair anything as long as it is metal.........all hand-made too on old machinery using old skills too...........Terry is on the premises for 6 days a week sometimes and quality and customer needs are, and remain, his focus........

Terry is the best resource for reproduction James ML and Flying Flea parts, but can also offer replica parts for most other WD bikes......all made from original parts as patterns..............NOT the cheapest, but you are paying for perhaps the best available.............if you have given up trying to find that elusive part, as long as a pattern is available Terry can make it................

I might add that Terry is a very quiet and pleasant man, attentive, and a great listener too........whatever the problem, he will listen and then tell it how it is..........Drew his son is the same.........they are NOTHING like phoning Russell Motor's.........!

I plan to post a few pictures of the team and the workshop next week..........

Funny that Steve, my baloon tank is going to be in there for repair on Wednesday next week

He comes highly recommended

Job

email (option): Jonnyob1@googlemail.com

Steve, would he be the man to cast a batch of volks air filter elbows?
Wade

email (option): iron_ariel@yahoo.ca

Terry uses the same foundry as me in London. I know that as I've dropped off and collected stuff for him. The problem with this sort of part is you need a proper pattern and the after machining can be difficult and costly.

For instance the Norton bump stops I recently had made were machined by a friend at 'Mates Rates' and people still baulk at the £75 price. I doubt most busy engineers would have wanted to bother with the job, or if they did the proper price would have been at least doubled. Jigs and fixtures had to be made, which are not really viable for a small run.

Lex was getting an elbow pattern made. I don't know how he's doing with the project, but I'll leave the next batch to him. Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Ron, with this 3-D printing malarkey, is it not now very much easier to make up patterns? I guess you cannot just print the actual elbow due to material required (?) but is it a very quick way to knock up a pattern? No idea, but would be nice if it could. Not bikes, but anyone with a Bedford 28hp engine will know that exhaust manifolds are now getting hard to find and that's another bit of kit that needs someone to cast a batch. Back to Metal Magic, they did a great job to reproduce my G3L rear carrier.

email (option): Fergusanckorn@icloud.com

It could be 3D printed in stainless steel if that was required. It isn't a big deal any more for a bit like that to be printed in metal. Would 100 GBP be an acceptable price for the finish product? I would certainly be willing.
Wade

email (option): iron_ariel@yahoo.ca

Do you think he would be able to make an 8" blackout mask ?

I will contact him on Monday and enquire! And let you all know


Mark

email (option): towersmark84@yahoo.co.uk

email (option): wd.register@gmail.com

Yes, I looked into it, but not feasible yet, I do have laserprinted plastic parts to use as a mould, but in the case of the Vokes elbows the problem is the thin walled structure of the piece, so has to be centrifugally cast, we did make such a machine, and are near to the right product, but it all costs so much time!



I can have them printed in grey plastic, but the cost would still be high, and I would not guarantee them to all kinds of petrol that are on the market right now, and with that heavy hose hanging on there, I don't know, I really want to aim for a good product, cast in Mazak, that will have the same colour and other characteristics as the original.

For those who really don't want to wait any longer I can look into having them printed in plastic, but I will give no guarantee.

Cheers,

Lex

email (option): welbike@welbxxx.net (think about this)

I'm not sure how confident I'd be of the standard desktop FDM style 3D Printed plastic in this service environment, and definitely would have reservations about it near petrol.

And yes, second that on 3D Printed stainless steel as expensive. Shapeways charged US$6/part and $5/cm3 and have minimum wall/feathure thicknesses of 1mm or greater. https://www.shapeways.com/materials/steel

We've done some testing with casting directly from a 3D Printed PLA object - think lost wax casting but with plastic. The pics of the results of the first test objects are at my business blog. The bronze one shows the level of detail you can get, but the caster had some cracking of the mold as he was experimenting with the plaster/sand mix. But those layer details are 0.1mm and they come up nicely. The Aluminimum support came out ok, with details like the captive nut hex tunnels and coming through. The results were promising for a first attempt.

Any suggestions on what to model up and try and print for the M20s? I was thinking things like speedo drive housings would be a neat test object.

email (option): matthew.j.croucher@gmail.com

What about a master for the cast steel cylinder head, WITHOUT the broken fins...
A NOS one could be scanned and corrections applied, 3D made into any material that you can use as a model for sand casting. The work remaining: drilling the bolt holes, drilling and tapping the spark plug hole and surface-grind the lower part is not too difficult for an experienced DIY
Or is this a too simple view

I think it is an over simplification and it's best not to get carried away with the abilities of scanners...

First you need a pattern and presumably the scanner would be useful for that..but it wouldn't be free...Does anyone know the rough cost of such a pattern for a cylinder head?...

Next you have to find a foundry than can do iron castings to the required quality....Once that is done you'll need to do enough castings to make it a viable proposition...You would need all the costings to work that number out...

Then they have to be fettled and finally machined..

At least for the first operation I would think a jig would be required...So there would be a tooling costs to factor in...

Now you have a pile of new M20 cylinder heads...

Each head bears a part of the pattern, casting,material, fettling, jigging, tooling and machining costs..

Further they will have to be transported from place to place to have the various operations carried out...More costs to be factored in...

Then you have to market them and I assume make a profit for all your efforts and investment...

You'll also be trying to sell them into an..err...cost conscious market...

I've manufactured enough parts and operated in the classic bike market for long enough to know it will be an uphill struggle to see the project through from start to finish...and you might end up with a lifetimes supply of new heads for your own use...

'Talk is cheap' and everyone has suggestions when it comes to how good it would be to replicate hard to find parts...

The reality is not that many people actually do it..or even have a firm grasp of what is involved. Not just in the manufacture but also the prevailing attitudes in the 'classic bike' market place...

Many people will only buy replica parts as a last resort because of the desire for originality...So there is one obstacle straight away to making a sale...

I have to say I'm not cynical about it and my comments are not directed at any individual...but it is best to route any discussion firmly in reality, taking everything into account...Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

You are of course absolutely correct, Ian. It needs consideration of whether the part IS really very hard to find AND in demand as effectively a consumable, OR just a rare part to survive ( as presumably the air filter elbow).........and the consider the cost and alternatives to manufacture. For example, for this elbow, has anyone tried asking the usual " pipe bender" sources, such as Armours? Cannot really think of anything on the G3L that is an obvious candidate to consider for the 3D treatment, but as I noted, there seems to be a queue forming for Bedford 28Hp engine exhaust manifolds and it is interesting to hear how the advances in 3D printing are beginning to come to bear on the economics of making up new parts.....or not!

email (option): Fergusanckorn@icloud.com

Actually Ferg the G3L is probably the only one you could use a tube bender for. It's not the normal 3 piece elbow that is used on most of the other WD bikes. Good pictures seem few and far between, but somehow the tube has to get past the oil tank cap. I think this must have been done by either spacing the oil tank off or wasting the tube in or a bit of both.

BTW, Armours don't bend any tubes, they only make the silencers and outsource the bending.

As you probably know, Norman Aish who lives about a mile from me is one of the main Bedford dealers and gets unavailable parts made including castings. Maybe he is the bloke to ask about the manifold. Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Ron, re the Bedford motor, many thanks; I have bought stuff from Norman and he is a super bloke (not many suppliers out there who still do COD!) but I eventually found a replacement manifold from Chris Morter and that was a very secondhand unit but with still enough meat on it to stand machining. And he did not have any others that were better than my u/s unit.........at this stage getting a batch made up is getting imperative!

email (option): Fergusanckorn@icloud.com

I'm seeing Terry and his team on Wednesday coming so promise a few images of the team, the workshop and parts.........always good to put a face to the name......

email (option): sjmwdbikemad@aol.co.uk

Agreed, Ian. There is so much more to 3D Scanning and printing than just hitting copy on a photocopier, despite what the media hype says.

I've had experience with several different 3D scanning systems and everyone expects you to be able to take an object and recreate it perfectly, internal detail and all. The reality is that you will be spending hours on working with the mesh you generate from the scan to get something vagely resembling a useful part, and that time isn't cheap from people who know what they're doing. That being said I've scanned some broken bits from a jag, and merged the model together so that we could print a replacement part. But it wasn't a quick process and I left most of the post processing of the mesh to the other guy!

As Ian points out, just like with his aluminium cylinder head castings you're going to still need to machine them after casting and need to take those extra steps into account. Do-able. Just takes time and money, like everything - Cylinder heads, I wouldn't scan them. Too many thin walls and overhangs. It'd be quicker, more accurate and less headache to model it up.

It's best to treat 3D Printing as another tool in the box. Is it neat being able to watch an object come to life on the desk next to me that was just a computer model a few minutes ago? Sure! Is it the solution to every manufacturing problem? Not so much. It all comes down to the application and the volume you're after.

email (option): matthew.j.croucher@gmail.com

With all the trouble and strife and money its going to take to make a new cylinder head as mentioned in Ian's post, if we find a new one at a autojumble we can be pretty certain it's NOS, not an Indian one