I have been lucky to have the opportunity to study an early lockable BSA toolbox whilst helping deliver it to its new home, the new owner has agreed to allow me to share some pictures in order to hopefully learn something about it.

It differs in what I imagined was a pretty standard part in a couple of ways, firstly there is a lock riveted to the front, and secondly it has a third attachment hole in the back which according to Henk would appear to line up with a hole in the valance on the early rear mudguard. It appears to be in original KG3 paint and it doesn't look like it has ever had the bracket to hold the handbook or the Bowden cable to stop the flap opening to far.

So I'm wondering how many tool box variation were there and when were they in use, was there an example with the screw catch and the third hole in the back for instance? could you all check your boxes to see if you have one.

Here are some pictures and dimensions.

Rob

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk

With such an opening statement, I think it is clear that Rob is well on the way to the 'Rivet-Counter of the year' title, 2015 ! !

There are certanly at least four different types of WD Norton tool boxes (plus of course the odd panier type fitted for a short while) and certainly the early lockable type have neither the retaining chain nor the handbook clip.

The latter is probably a post 1942 introduction as in the case of Norton at least, it would only really be useful for the small Rider's handbooks and not the earlier type that were the same size as the spare parts lists.

It's always seemed an odd place to keep a booklet. Not exactly the driest place imaginable.

Were there oilskin wallets for the vehicle documents ?

Its still only January, but I can dream..

Its a good point about Norton handbooks getting smaller later in the war, but BSA handbooks as far as I'm aware were all the same size, and I've often wondered where you kept your AB412 logbook?

Rob

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk

In the various photos of tool kit inspections etc., I've never noticed any paperwork.

Rob van den Brink's site is really the only place on the web that deals with the AB412 and he has this to say:-

"From a conversation with a veteran motorcyclist I learned that (at least with his unit) the Log Books were kept by the Motor Transport section of the unit and not carried around."

There really isn't enough room in the standard toolbox for everything as it is, if the full set includes spare plug, insulating tape, tyre kit and folding oil can etc...

I have been looking through all the M20 photos I can find and there are a few where there is no round or toggle catch visible so presumably there may be a keyhole which doesn't show up at the quality available, but in all cases they are machines from early contracts where the census (C number) was only painted on the left side of the tank, and so the contract can't be identified.

But it would appear that Dutch contract M21s with the valanced front mudguard usually have the round screw catch.

There are some part number differences in the spares lists

Contract C6126
Tool box 66-9101
Tool box securing screw 29-9109

RAF Contracts C10655, C14052 & RN Contract S13873
Tool box 66-9127
Tool box securing screw 66-9126

Contract C9310-S7218
Tool box 65-9038
Tool box screw fastener 65-9028 (toggle type)

Rob

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk

Rob, Do any of those photos have civilian number plates ? It may be possible to pin down contract by comparing with drive side views of bikes with numbers in the vicinity.

It's something that I've started analysing on Nortons and there are patterns but the sequence isn't alway logical.

Here one in German service



Here's an early Irish Army one



Another captured example missing its lid but judging by the internal part of the catch it looks like it had a lock

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk

Rob, your pictures appear to show them fitted to both MT110 and MT1130-equipped versions. The question is whether these MT110s were those fitted prior to the 1130 or after it...

I wonder if it was a military requirement ? Leon's catalogue pages don't show the lock on any model for either 1939 or 1940.

Here's one on the beach at Malo Les Bains (with MT1130 so August 1939 - March 1940, I'd say) :-



This is a detail from a well-known photo. I can't see a knob there. It's a late C5110 bike...maybe around February 1940 production ?



This one definitely has the lock...but the number is a hand-painted one, maybe during the brief change from fuel tank numbers. It looks like C4124078 to me which would mean also an early 1940 C5110 machine.

Nice toolbox!! wonder where that came from......

Note that the BSA V-twins for the War Office used the same lock, but on different toolboxes.

Cheers,

Lex

ps, a C10 ignition key will fit and operate the lock, but could use some modifying on the end bit.



Just file down the end bit, leaving a pointy bit in the middle that fits in the small hole in the back of the lock.

email (option): welbike@welbxxx.net

Hi

Most interesting investigation into the use of these early toolboxes. As the very privileged new owner (thanks to Lex) I now have a dilemma - whether to preserve it as is (consisting original paintwork) or restore and fit to my bike as intended! As an archaeologist I am Swayed to the first option, as a bike enthusiast I tend toward the latter!

Decisions, decisions!

Cheers

Andy T

email (option): a.tizzard@btopenworld.com

Andy, I completely understand the dilemma and not just because I spent a certain proportion of my teenage years on my hands and knees in muddy holes with the Croydon Natural History and Scientific Society...

I ended up leaving the majority of the fasteners on my Norton in their original and sometimes degraded finish as I felt that they usefully showed how the parts looked at the time of manufacture and during initial service. However, the remains of the original paintwork looked nothing like they would have during 1939 /40.

I did seriously wonder if the machine as found should be in a museum but decided on the basis of under-funded museums, over-full stock rooms and an apathetic public that no-one would really be interested in seeing the unrestored remains of a 1939 Norton...posterity was better served by documenting and photographing fully and then restoring the machine as a tribute to the BEF.

The sad fact is that in fifty years time, most of this stuff will probably be in the smelter. Enjoy it while you can.

So when did the habit of welding hasp and staples on to the tool box so a small padlock can be fitted start, the batch of bikes exported from Antwerp in the 70s To the USA ,( Most seemed to end up in Florida) have these welded on fittings, that could have been done during the post war rebuild before going into long time storage, however there are many war time photos showing these fitted was it a local thing, or an national order to stop pilfering

email (option): warbikesAT GEE Male .com(think about this)

The Irish connection is interesting, these early Irish bikes appeared to be leaving the factory at about the same time as contract C5110, unfortunately I don't have a spares list for that contract to check the part numbers, does anyone have an Irish issue spares list?

I have found a couple more pictures of early Irish bikes which prove it wasn't a one off, this one has the screw catch but the box is a different colour so presumably a replacement?



Rob

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk

Hi Andrew, I could be wrong but I think I have only seen one picture of the hasp and staple lock being used during the war, and that was an early picture of a "Phantom Signals" patrol, and we don't know what they would have carried in their tool boxes?

Having a lockable toolbox seems to have official policy for a period early in the war and you see locks on various makes for a certain period, policy then changed and nothing was locked for most of the war, the hasp and stapled locks found today on post war rebuilt bikes I suspect you are right to say were fitted after the war.

Rob

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk

Hmm, Locks on phantom tool boxes, codes being stored, a possibility,

email (option): warbikesAT GEE Male .com(think about this)

Hello Everyone,

I know this thread was active in 2015, but I'm (still) unclear as to when the shape of the toolbox changed. The early toolboxes depicted seem to have a more triangular shape, with the thinner wedge pointing towards the rear wheel spindle. Later types seem to have a much more rounded shape at this point, making them more rhomboid.

Was there a change over point? This will help me find the proper box, with luck.

Best wishes, Allan

email (option): allanmatchless@yahoo.com

I wasn't aware that the shape changed much? But the WM20 tool box is much deeper than the civy box. Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

I only have access to the tool box on my bike . And because the paint inside is so shiny I assume it is a repop. But how deep should the WM20 box be?

email (option): wadeschields@mindspring.com

Catalogue photos as posted by Ron are unreliable...Some parts look a little different due to the extensive work carried out by an artist on the original photos and some catalogues, probably printed before the production models were finalised, show parts that were never fitted...Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

The overall outside depth of a WD toolbox is about 4". I guess that is an inch or more deeper than a civy box. Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com