Does anyone know if and or how many British BSA M20s were sent to Russia as part of aid shipments during WWII?

Any leads on such information are greatly welcomed.

Thanks!

Sincerely,

Rob

Rob Leinweber
USA

email (option): raleinweber@smsd.gs

Hi Rob

Its news to me, lots of "stuff" was sent to Russia, some was used, some was put in store, some was lost on the way there in the Arctic convoys.

Looking at the Frame numbers page on this website there are hundreds of M20s surviving in countries all around the world but I can't see any in Russia.

Could this be an urban myth?

Rob

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk

According to a Russian website, they received M20s...there is certainly talk of British motorcycles.

However, these were probably not built to a specific contract as per the US supplies but would have been taken from Chilwell stocks.

http://englishrussia.com/2012/05/09/unique-lend-lease-museum-in-moscow/3/

Of course, it could be that they simply stole an M20 and a Welbike in Berlin during 1945...

If there is anything documented, it would be in the National Archive.

Maybe one of these files ?

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/browse/r/h/C2268860

email (option): 79x100(at)gmail.com

Not forgetting the Germans took captured M20s to Russia as well...Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Ian, anything the Germans took should have been more or less 'deLuxe' spec...By the time the smaller fuel tanks were reaching the front, the Germans were probably not capturing sufficient quantities to supply forces in the East.

email (option): 79x100(at)gmail.com

The Germans probably captured some later equipment in Crete, Greece, North Africa and Italy, its possible some of it made its way to Russia?

Rob

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk

It seems unlikely to me as English motorcycles were not particuarly suited to conditions in Russia. Also the Soviets had gone to considerable trouble to set up factories to produce hundreds of thousands of M72's which did suit them very well and them went to even more trouble to relocate those factories out of range of the invading facists.
Richard

I wouldn't discount anything...........we sent aircraft (Hampden's, Hurricanes, etc) and vehicles to Russia, plus tanks (Valentines) and weaponry, so why not motorcycles ? There was rumour of a G3L tested with "ski attachments" either side so other motorcycles, not just M20's, could have been a possibility..............arguably, by 1942-43 supply had met and exceeded demand of motorcycles, therefore some lend-lease supply may have been possible..........

It is also questionable regarding any motorcycles suitability for the extremes of weather encountered in Russia, whether German or British..............the former used two-strokes and flat twins/4's, plus USA-supplied WLA's, so any British singles were perhaps no more suitable than those already serving there.............

Hello

I'm living in post soviet area. Most of M20 bikes and parts I have seen here are '39-'40. I have heard stories about large yards, thousands of motorcycles after war, what russians took with them from their journey to europe. Bikes were sold to officers and some also to civilians. WLA was very common bike these days and also BMW. I also have heard story that british royalty gave some M20 escort models to Stalin as gift, but it's probably nonsense.

Greetings from Estonia

email (option): kalle.tikas@gmail.com

Hi Kalle,

Wasn't your BSA one from the Dutch military, probabaly used by the Germand army?

Henk

email (option): ahum@quicknet.nl

Hi
It's Dutch '39 M21 and belongs to my friend. My M20 is purchased from Germany 7 years ago and I think it came from asia or africa.

email (option): kalle.tikas@gmail.com

I've been chatting with Peter Lenaerds who has an interest in WD Velocettes and he has indicated that there is some considerable evidence of Velocette MAFs being sent to Russia.

...There was even a cyrillic instruction book produced !



Apparently MAF components have turned up in the former Eastern Bloc.

Presumably there would have to be a fairly substantial number needed before specific literature would be printed. Further research is needed to ascertain if these were supplied by the factory or were unused WD stock after they had decided to standardise on the larger producers.

Very nice, a BSA version of that would be nice to see.

Rob

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk

I have also been talking to Peter Lenaerds. In fact he came to my house last week with the original crankcases for my MAF (another chance in a million story!!!). I have also been talking to Colin Goodwin VOC archivist, who thinks that there were more MAF's built than the 947 listed in O&M. There is obviously a reason the instruction book was printed in Russian. Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

There is a website dedicated to lend lease supplies to Russia. Very intersting reading. It states there were 685 BSA, 255 Matchless, 1 Norton, 225 Velocettes and 45 unspecified. I do not know about other makes but have had several enquiries from people with Velo MAFs in eastern europe. They can only have come from these sent to Russia. They all have numbers within those quoted in O & M so I do not know where Colin's idea of there being more comes from. There were also over 29,000 US motorcycles sent to Russia!

email (option): roger.franklin@blueyonder.co.uk

Thanks for that reply Roger. Nice to think that the Number shown in O&M could be correct. I think Colin bases his theory on some MAF's that have come to light with higher numbers than those recorded in O&M. But of course these could be fictitious bikes?

Here is the website that Roger refers to. http://www.o5m6.de/main.html

The numbers are under the heading " Foreign Aid Statistics'

Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

It would seem that if the original poster wishes to pursue the matter further, he will need to obtain a copy of "Comrades in Arms" which may well list the documents which provide the primary evidence.

http://www.abebooks.co.uk/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=12684694736&searchurl=an%3Dbeaumont%26amp%3Bsts%3Dt%26amp%3Bkn%3Dcomrades

Gentlemen,

Thanks to all of you for your input on this topic.

This will help out my friend greatly regarding this issue.

Sincerely,

Rob
Easton, IL
USA

email (option): raleinweber@smsd.gs

A friend of mine has a Model X Matchless frame that came back from Russia. I also have a photo of a Model X outfit being ridden by the Wehrmacht. JT

Dima, don't you even dare!

Anyway, I have not seen anything on English motorcycles used by the Red Army at all. I can find tons of WLA photos and info, however nothing on BSA, Norton's etc. I think it would be to say on the safer side, that those probably didn't make it to Russia. The primary bikes that were actually issued were the M72 Dnepr and the HD WLA. Everything else will be a captured bike.

However here is a Triumph BD250.....which at the time was made in Germany, I guess this would be the closest to British bikes, used by the Russians.

http://odkrywca.pl/forum_pics/picsforum17/triumph_bd_250_w_rkka_wikszy.jpg

Here is also a nice page, with tons of other bikes used by the Russians, sorry it's in Polish!

http://odkrywca.pl/pokaz_watek.php?id=283434

there was a program about a chap riding around Russia and he was talking to some Russian hell angels types in the background was one of those shaft drive Harleys wasn't in good condition but looked all there these bike that we lend leased to the Russian all went straight into storage and are still there you know what the Russian are like will not chuck anything away

email (option): roger.beck@node6.com

Saw this is on ebay?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/WW2-United-Kingdom-part-of-the-motorcycles-Norton-German-Battlefield-Relic-/262164765597?hash=item3d0a3cdb9d:g:~G8AAOSwv0tVbyDa

Rob

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk

Not sure if this proves that the UK actually sent WM20's or Nortons to Russia but it is possible that the Germans did. Since quite a large number of troops were sent East and a lot of them would have been battle hardened or experienced troops, some of which may have had British bikes captured at Dunkirk, Calais etc.....
Also many pre and post war bikes used similar knee pads, and I believe there are photos of BSA and Norton bikes, amongst others in future Eastern Block countries such as Poland and Bulgaria.

email (option): stinkypete80@hotmail.com

I agree its more likely have been taken to Russia by the Germans.

But it's another piece of the great jigsaw puzzle and this thread seemed like the best place to put it.

For the record its a Norton Knee grip rubber described by the seller thus.

"WW2-United-Kingdom-part-of-the-motorcycles-Norton-German-Battlefield-Relic"

"It was found on german positions under Leningrad.Wolchow front (1941-43)".

Rob

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk