Anyone tried fitting a Vokes tank-top air cleaner to an Ariel W/NG ?

Did a dry-fitting run today.............have all the correct parts........AND double-checked the military parts list for good measure just to make certain I wasn't missing something............

Seemingly, the only major difference with the Ariel would seem to be the flexible hose, which is listed as only 6-inches long..........

But a "dry run" today seemed to reveal that the assembly, when in place and fixed to the carburettor, is close/fouling the oil tank cap.............all parts are straight and not out of line........

The only thing I can think of is that I am running a larger 276 instead of a 275 carb on the W/NG but the size difference is minimal...............

Thoughts anyone ? Period photos of late W/NG's with filters attached are seemingly thin on the ground...............

Steve, I haven't tried to fit a Vokes to a W/NG yet! But I guess you have this picture from the W/NG manual! It shows the standard universal elbow. Things are so close that it looks like the curved tube 'N' is a necessity and positioned quite a long way out to complete the arc. I also think the original hose was a lot more flexible than the modern stuff.

For comparison, I have measured my 275 from outside thread to filler neck which is about 47mm.

I did have a lot of head scratching with a friend once, trying to fit one to his G3L.
Ron

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email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Thanks Ron. This is very useful. The issue seems to be with the pipe elbow assembly (the 2-piece clamp-together item) which comes off the carb and almost touches the oil filler cap...........may have to do a bit of deft filing to get sufficient clearance although it will be tight !

Well it can be done! Although a slightly bigger carb or even a thick flange gasket could hamper!! Ron

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email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

It may be down to the view but the images I have of W/NGs seem to show some of them with a more extreme down-draught on the carb. They didn't alter the heads at some point, did they ?

Steve, are you saying that you have the correct, original fittings between the carb and the tube, specifically for Ariel? I think they must be different than the ones used on other models.

The 275 and 276 carbs definitely have a different outlet size, with the 276 being much closer to the outlet size of the filter.

If you know that you have the correct, original fittings can you have them 3D scanned? I am willing to pay the costs. Pictures will be very much appreciated.

Wade

email (option): iron_ariel@yahoo.ca

Wade I'm quite sure the Vokes elbow is a standard size. Of course the ring fitting that screws on the carb in place of the bell mouth will have a smaller diameter thread. Perhaps Steve can confirm that from his parts lists.

Here is the original Elbow on my M20 from which I had a small batch cast. Ron

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email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Nice exhaust pipe on the 'RAF' Ariel...Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

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Never mind the Vokes filter...You want one of these... ..Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Filter is an original, pipe the correct wartime width, stub correct diameter pipe and 2-piece flange fitting one of Ron's accurate repro's. I have an original carb ring too.........

Running the W/NG on a 276 Amal rather than the standard 275.......after checking Ron's earlier measurements, even with a 276 fitted the clearance is about the same.......

Seemingly, having checked the parts list and cross-referenced it for the umpteenth time, the W/NG filter assembly is the same as other WD bikes (Norton part numbers) with only the hose varying (6 inch length)..........

Wade, can't scan anything at present (scanner buried behind boxes that are going nowhere anytime soon !) plus now short on free time as heading off abroad next week until start of November...........

Here's the old Ariel recently back in the workshop for some much-needed tlc after over 2 years out of use............Frame number XG 24366, engine BH 16906.......Contract C.11103........Bike (frame) build date 10th April 1942......

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email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Need to change those tank transfers though Ron !! WD later type were plain gold lettering (as shown on mine)................available from Classic Transfers........

The ones with the dark background are civvy............

Earlier WD Ariel's still retained metal tank badges, infilled with enamel......BUT, the WD versions had the background enamelled khaki-green (according to an original example I've seen)...............

For info, earlier Ariel fuel tanks with metal badges retained two knee grip rubber mounting holes............later fuel tanks, bereft of the metal badges, had a pressing into each side of the fuel tank for the decals and only one knee-grip rubber mounting hole.......it is though that, at an early stage, Ariel retained this, not for grips but for mounting the Vokes filter..............

As far as is known, no Ariel "cutaway" tanks produced for the Vokes hose......and, unlike many other WD models, the Ariel Fuel tank holds 2 & 1/2 gallons only !

And as an interesting "aside", Ariel retained the 36 spoke front wheel (WM2 size) for the duration of the war, although had a 40 spoke on the rear.........

I'll look into the transfer issue Steve. These were the ones that Bob supplied me. We can't ask him now of course. Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Steve, I would be surprised if you have a 3D scanner behind all that stuff. If you do, lucky you. If it is 3D scanned it can be made in a 3D printer.

Other than that, Ron are there any plans to have another batch cast, complete with adapter rings? There must be 2 different rings, one for the 275 and one for the 276.

email (option): iron_ariel@yahoo.ca

What ? Wade, all I know is our computer scanner/printer is currently behind a load of boxes ready for a show that my wife has as part of her business straight after when we get back.......I haven't a clue what type it is sorry......I'm not all that interested in IT !!

Late W/NG's still fitted with the smaller 275 carburetter, so yes, I guess a smaller adapter ring was specified to fit the thread (where the bell-mouth fits) although probably wider (in casting) to accept the same Vokes filter elbow as standard............were G3L's similarly affected, or had they migrated to the 276 by late war ?

Part number for the Ariel's "Adapter, carburetter to flexible tube" (meaning the elbow rather than the tube itself) is "MT12/NC.12899".................although why it was given a Norton part number when Norton's never used a 275 carb is unclear........

The above from a 1945 (late) W/NG parts list...............

Steve I looked at Classic Transfers site and they have civvy and WD tank transfer for 1939-46. He obviously sent me the civvy version......Although I don't understand why they have such a version for those years. Did Ariel make any civvy bikes during the war?

I'll email Marcia and order the correct type.

Wade I have no intention of going through that foundry process again, but I think Lex is going through the procedure with a 3D printer pattern. Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Yes Ron, Ariel made a few civvy models during the War. I have a 1940 VG myself which is admittedly early on. A few more were shipped out during the War but I think not after 42. Have to consult the Ariel Club Registrar to confirm the dispatches.

Steve, pretty sure you've heard of 3D printing but may not be aware of new advances. Items can now be made in several metals as well as plastic.

http://www.explainingthefuture.com/3dprinting.html

The advantage of having a part 3D scanned is that the information can be sent anywhere in the world to be made in a 3D printer. This way the information is out there for anyone who needs a part made, so no bother continually having to take a part to the foundry for fit up.

Hope Lex gets it done, so a few more filters can be properly installed.

Wade

email (option): iron_ariel@yahoo.ca

I read the Danish Army had WNGs...Maybe that explains why so many have turned up in those Scandinavian countries....Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Seems a fair few W/NG's made it to Northern European countries.......many in Norway, Denmark and Sweden.......seems that they were purchased en-mass.......although some examples did remain in WD service into the early 1950s at least, particularly with the RAF...........

Wade, I missed the bit about 3D scanning (apologies), but nowadays I'm not into getting stuff made........I have the money but sadly not the time nor inclination ! That's a legacy of what retirement does to you.........as one of my retired friends mentioned to me recently "I don't know how I found the time to work !"........same for me now, and although I still love tinkering around with bikes and associated, I love spending a bit more time with my wonderful wife a great deal more !!!!

On the plus side, sorted out the dead magneto on the Ariel today........I had a NOS armature that has been decently stored, so after a clean-up and a renewal of a few parts from spares stock I bench-tested her with aid from a drill and she sparks very well.........threw a fat blue spark almost an inch !! Time will tell however, if this has been successful or not.........many more jobs still to do........

As far as is known, the Scandinavian Forces did not use W/NGs themselves as they had their own source of motorcycles and it wasn't Ariels. All of the W/NGs in those countries came from British Forces at the end of the War. I suppose that the Danes might have inherited the odd W/NG left by occupying German Forces, that may have picked up a bike or two at Dieppe.

Steve, for some of us, our best friend is a machine. Happy for you that your magneto still sparks romance :-). Cheers to all the wives who support their husbands' obsessive hobbies.

Was thinking about the oil tank /flex tube interference. Could the oil tank be moved to the rear a few mm?

Wade

email (option): iron_ariel@yahoo.ca

I does look possible that the top hole could be slotted to move the tank back a tad. Before it either touches the saddle spring tube or it just looks odd. Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

My own thoughts exactly Ron.......the top fitting is quite wide and the oil-tank with a decent amount of clearance to move back a few mm.......perhaps making the top hole a "slot" may permit a degree of re-positioning.....?

And relax!.... I must admit, the new gold block transfers look a bit more military than the black/blue ones I had. Ron

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email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

very nice Ron it's a whole different bike

email (option): tiger100@telenet.be

Nit-picking here Ron...nice green cables ! I got mine, laquer-braided cable, new-old-stock, from Russell's............still with WD Ariel labels attached............only one they didn't have was the magneto cable............but I was able to make one up from stocks of original cable spares here............

Going back to Ron's comment at the start of this thread.......worth noting that the Vokes, when fitted to a G3L, was even more different.............

According to the manual, the rear was mounted on a wooden block, rather than relying on just the felt pads to support the filter box............and there were two "profiles" of wooden blocks listed depending on the type (shape) of fuel tank fitted...............

Seemingly, some G3L's may also have had a third strap fitting on the Vokes at the front, fitting onto the front of the fuel tank bridge............

Also, some G3L's at least, seem to have had a different pipe fitted, that looking at period photos, may have been solid/semi-solid ?

Some bikes also specify a larger main jet fitted when running a correctly-assembled Vokes...............

Yes as I said, it caused us some head scratching! The G3L has a solid tube, and try working out how that gets past the oil filler cap

We slightly spaced the oil tank off, although there is no mention of it or spacers in the instructions. We still had to squeeze the pipe to a flat section where it passed the filler cap. I would love to know how it was done originally.

Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

['Some bikes also specify a larger main jet fitted when running a correctly-assembled Vokes....']

That's a bit odd...A smaller main jet is fitted usually when an air filter is added to a non filtered bike...

The air flow is restricted by the filter so petrol supply is reduced to compensate...Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

['Some bikes also specify a larger main jet fitted when running a correctly-assembled Vokes....']

That's a bit odd...A smaller main jet is fitted usually when an air filter is added to a non filtered bike...

The air flow is restricted by the filter so petrol supply is reduced to compensate...Ian.......

I would agree Ian, however, I quote the following from the Matchless G3L Tecnhical Inspection Standards Handbook, Electrical and Mechanical Engineering regulations, Wheeled Vehicles B418, issued 21 October 1953 (same format as the BSA M20 one):-

Main Jet:

(A) With Air Cleaner, Size 160

(B) Without Air Cleaner, Size 120

This is for the G3L running on a 275 carburetter and 120 is the normal size jet. Seems that when a Vokes was fitted, they specified a larger jet, not smaller......

Strange that a Vokes was still specified as a fitting during the early 1950s, or maybe they are referring to a different type of air cleaner ?