I'm in the process of researching and gathering a few items to get my M20 running. Although I certainly can do without the C number I surely would like to have it put on. I'm wondering if anyone can help identify what it could possibly be. It is a 1941 (thanks Henk) frame number WM20 43761 with a 43 engine 88959. I know it came out of Israel with a sidecar added in the 50s. I would appreciate any more information to C number and any thing else one can offer. Thanks in advance for you help.

John

email (option): jangofla@gmail.com

Hi John

Sounds like an interesting bike, according to Steve and Chris's book your frame was originally from an RAF contract so it probably never had a C number, there would have been a number on the tank starting RAF.... but as things stand there are no surviving records as to RAF numbers issued.

Does your bike have cast sidecar lugs on the front down tube, under the seat and by the rear wheel? perhaps you could you post some pictures.

Rob

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk

The sidecar is a Wilkowitz or Welkowitz horribly mounted in a crude fashion with frame welds both front and rear. RAF is a start. Oddly not sure if possible but I've stripped off some paint in various places and I'm seeing a light blue everywhere even in hidden away places which could have had original paint. I don't think anyone would have gone so far to paint absolutely everything without addressing the welds. It's marked 42 but I found out after it's a 41. This was it running in 1995.

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and this is when I bought it. It's been owned by one indiviidual for 27 years.
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I actually got it to sputter a bit with just a quick carb clean up and put a bit of fuel in the float bowl. Is it possible RAF blue may have been original. Here's the history from the owner.

This cycle has been sitting in air conditioned storage for as long as I have owned it which is over twenty five years. I have driven it in the past and even drove it to Daytona Beach for bike week. At 71 years of age, I guess that I'll never restore it so it is being sold. This bike is being sold for restoration, it is complete, has good compression, good transmission and will run with minimal work. Clearly a new battery and tires should be first priority. The 500 cc 'military' bike lacks a factory ignition key switch and it has a compression release for assisting when you crank over the bike. I purchased the bike, back in the 1980's from a Navy SeeBee who was an engineer and built the two air strips in Israel according to the Sinai Agreement of 1951. He bought this surplus English bike over there and it was his transportation during his stay in that country. He painted it an incorrect color but the original military color is on the generator and this sample could be used to obtain the original military color. Hopefully, this bike will go to a good home where it will be restored and driven. I do not take 'PayPal' so certified funds or cash must be provided before this unit is released from my property. The mileage listed reflects the numbers on the speedometer; not the true mileage. Please view the photos, ask questions, and thank you for viewing this piece of World War II military history. I have a clear, valid Florida Title on this bike which was issued to me 3/11/87.

email (option): jangofla@gmail.com

Hi John

Sounds like an interesting bike, according to Steve and Chris's book your frame was originally from an RAF contract so it probably never had a C number, there would have been a number on the tank starting RAF.... but as things stand there are no surviving records as to RAF numbers issued.

Does your bike have cast sidecar lugs on the front down tube, under the seat and by the rear wheel? perhaps you could you post some pictures.

Rob [/quote]

I wonder if Anyone could help Me please ?
Im keen to identify the book referred to in this post please ?

Seems to quote frame numbers, etc ?

Who are the authors ?

Steve ...

The sidecar manufacturer, Welcovits, Est' 1947 and is still active.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kh2f0HQ6FY8

Noam.

email (option): noam10@gmail.com

Sorry I always assume everyone interested in military motorcycles has a copy of this book.

Here is a link to some listed on Abebooks, there are two editions, unfortunately it appears to now be out of print and some dealers are cashing in.

Rob

http://www.abebooks.co.uk/servlet/SearchResults?an=steve+madden+orchard&sts=t

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk

Hi Stephen,the book is called"British Forces Motorcycles,1925-1945 by
C J Orchard and Steve J Madden, ISBN 0-7509-0777-0,you may get lucky on Ebay.
Steve Madden still posts on this site
cheers Rick

email (option): richardholt@rocketmail.com

By 1941, all RAF vehicles were being supplied in standard service colour. Probably Khaki Green No.3 at that stage but later SCC No.2 Brown.

The pre-war (and post-war) RAF colour was in any case described as RAF Blue-Grey, it is not a light blue.

Light blue does seem to have been favoured by various middle-eastern countries. The US involvement in Sinai was during the 1970s so perhaps this bike was another one of those vehicles captured during the Six-Day War.

http://www.usace.army.mil/About/History/HistoricalVignettes/MilitaryConstructionCombat/123IsraeliAirbases.aspx

The British left lots in Egypt after Suez and if it was an RAF machine then working out the serial number will, as Rob says be impossible. The RAF Museum insists that nothing has been retained. The best that we can do is perhaps look at some post-war UK auction sales catalogues and see if there are some number ranges that appear on BSAs (but I have a feeling that the RAF re-used numbers).

Actually I was mistaken about the light Blue. It is possibly a blue grey then under that seems like perhaps a green brown color under that is a primer(looks grey not light blue. Grant it this is on the tank and may have been replaced more than once so I'll try a few other spots. Magdyno is Olive but don't expect it's original either. I would be satisfied if impossible for C numbers knowing it's RAF. I found the book on Ebay and already purchased it and look forward to the read. My uncle served with the RAF as an aircraft mechanic.

email (option): jangofla@gmail.com

The RAF went back to blue-grey 'fairly soon' after the end of the war. Any vehicle in RAF service after 1946/47 is quite likely to have been repainted in that colour when it needed tidying up.

Rik,

Thank you, and thanks to the other responders. That's great information. I may just go back to Blue Grey RAF. But will take some photos of a couple of area I strip paint from and post them. I think Blue Grey with sidecar would come out well with some RAF logos. Hunting paint may be another issue.

email (option): jangofla@gmail.com

Sorry I always assume everyone interested in military motorcycles has a copy of this book.

Here is a link to some listed on Abebooks, there are two editions, unfortunately it appears to now be out of print and some dealers are cashing in.

Rob

http://www.abebooks.co.uk/servlet/SearchResults?an=steve+madden+orchard&sts=t[/quote]


Rob ,

Thanks for the "heads up" !
Im a newbie to the WM20 but keen to learn .
Just ordered a copy via "Amazon" .

Steve ..