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Gday all !
I've recently taken possession of a 1941 16H (wd frame) with a 41 big 4 engine !
I'm still in the process of researching its military history but in the meantime i thought i would get a start on stripping the frame/forks etc. and redoing the wheels, then tackle the engine and gearbox !
My questions are : Is this a logical sequence ? Should i replace the rims and spokes (rusted thru but hubs are ok) i'd get them done professionally or would i be better off trying to source 2nd hand wheels ?
I'll be doing/learning most of the work myself so ill have lots of stoopid questions in the future i'm sure !
Cheers Stu
Ps. Great site, already had a lot of help from a couple of guys here!
email (option): stuartcameron66@hotmail.com
Hi Stuart..If the bike was complete and in one piece when you got it then you know pretty much everything fits together OK...
In that case I usually start by stripping and painting the frame and engine/gearbox plates...
With these painted and assembled you can slowly build up the bike as you complete other parts. Which parts you tackle first then depends on the most logical build up 'sequence'..Personally I usually build up the engine and gearbox after the chassis...
When you identify jobs you can't do yourself get those off to the appropriate repairers so they don't hold you up later...
If the bike came to you as a 'basket case' or with a lot of parts either missing or beyond restoration (and thus requiring replacement) then the only sensible plan is to clean up what you have without painting it etc., source the parts you need and then do a 'dry build' to ensure everything fits correctly, is in good condition and so on....
Then strip it all down, carry out all the cosmetic refinishing and build it all up again....Ian
email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com
Thanks for your quick reply Ian !
Sounds like i'm on the right track, parts missing are seat, headlight, exhaust and cables/rubbers ! Everything else was together !
It's a "bitsa" (forks are 39 civilian) but thats ok, it'll be great once up and going !
Stu
email (option): stuartcameron66@hotmail.com
Here's a picture !
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email (option): stuartcameron66@hotmail.com
Congratulations, what a great find!
Looks sound and mostly there, please keep us posted on your progress; it's always great to see these machines being brought back to life.....(living vicariously)!
email (option): teladelujo@msn.com
I would do the engine and wheelbearings etc and leave the rest like that.
What is the point of that?...As noted the wheels need rebuilding and it's already got the wrong engine fitted and a number of other parts missing so isn't a standard machine. It hasn't even got the original or correct paintwork as it's a WD machine.
It will also probably need an engine and gearbox overhaul, mag and dynamo rebuild, new wiring, new battery, new tyres, saddles, possibly brake shoes, wheel bearings, steering head bearings etc. etc. just to make it roadworthy...
You'd just as well do the whole job and preserve the bike properly...Ian
email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com
Thanks for the replies, John, Mike, Ian and Henk (email) !
I have a 1956 AJS which i've left "aged" and just replaced the wiring, gaskets and tyres, i too like the original patina but the Norton will get a full restoration (albeit a bitsa)!
I was looking to do a civilian bike but a couple of NOC guys have kindly sent me documents which suggest the bike might have been sent to the Middle East ! Rik sent me a couple of photos as well, one showing a line up of Aussie troops and their bikes all very close to C4393808 (mine) !
If indeed it was stationed there (frame at least) i think it would be fitting to finish it back to a WD !
More researching !
Thanks again guy's, will be asking lots of questions and will post progress shot's !
Cheers
Stu
email (option): stuartcameron66@hotmail.com
Nice find Stuart
One thing I've found with these old bikes is don't throw old parts away, you'll be suprised what people can repair or even use as a pattern. I would get your wheels rebuilt, then you know they're good. You could spend ages trying to find another pair costing more money on the project. Good luck with it, that'll be a lovely bike when you've finished
email (option): horror@blueyonder.co.uk
Thanks for the tip Horror !
Taking the wheels to a specialist tomorrow for a quote, and will strip and prime frame and forks over the next couple of weeks!
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No turning back now !
email (option): stuartcameron66@hotmail.com
Hi Stuart...Brace yourself...The wheel rebuild with tyres, tubes, brake shoes and wheel bearings (if needed) is one of the more expensive jobs...Ian
email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com
Norton wheel bearings are fairly easy to find: 4203 and 6203.
But you may want to replace these with 6203-2RS1 and 62203-2RS1. I did that on my 16H and they still are okay after 80K+ km's and nearly 35 years!
4203 is a double row ball bearing, and 62203 is a single row ball nearing with the same width as the 4203. he two rubber seals stop you from having to lubricate the bearings and also acts as a seal to prevent grease getting into your brake drum.
Nice to see you on the forum, Stuart. There is a wealth of knowledge here and it's probably the friendliest and most helpful old bike forum anywhere.
My 16H has done a lot fewer kms thn RvM's but I was able to clean and replace the original bearings that Norton installed in December 1939.
The BSA boys should be jealous of our easily available metric wheel bearings.
{'The BSA boys should be jealous of our easily available metric wheel bearings'}...
Only when buying the front ones...
...There are other compensations though...
....Ian
email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com
Norton Commando gearbox layshaft bearing is the same as a 16H wheel bearings and so easily available from Andover Norton. The gearbox bearings are also the same as a Commando's gearbox but I got Andover to send me a main bearing with a seal on one side. Front and rear brake cams and shoes are the same as Commando rear brake (different thread on the cam nuts), so brake shoes are easy to get.
email (option): horror@blueyonder.co.uk
Hi all !
Ian- Braced and position assumed !
Rob- I've removed the wheel bearings and will replace with sealed ones as they have a lot of play in them ! Is the felt washer still required if using sealed units?
Horror- Any year Commando for the brake shoes ? the rear sprocket is badly worn so ill be after a new drum also !
Rik- i hear you about the forum, i've been reading thru posts and have'nt read a bad word yet! (nice change)
Sounds like a lot of you had a good run at Normandy, the pictures are great ! (even the BSA ones)
Cheers Stu
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email (option): stuartcameron66@hotmail.com
New rear drums are still available (made in england) on ebay but can't remember the name of the dealer so take care.
Those wheel might not be that bad once the dirt has been cleaned off. As long as they're not rusted though anywhere or too thin, but the front one does look very pitted. Go over them with some wire wool and parafin and with a coat of paint they could be fine. (But it is hard to see from here
) That's if you're doing it back to WD spec
The shoes from any year Commando with a drum rear brake will fit. Burton Bike Bits sell 16H rear drums but they're expensive. A quick search on ebay has found this one but still not cheap, but it does say made in England. But as you're in Australia it might be worth seaching for one there to save the postage.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/E2-463-NORTON-ES2-16H-18-REAR-WHEEL-BRAKE-DRUM-SPROCKET-43T-UK-MADE-/371023914040?pt=UK_Motorcycle_Parts_13&hash=item5662bfa438
email (option): horror@blueyonder.co.uk
As original, the singles had three shoes the same and one different in the front with a clearance for the speedo drive. However, although Norton deleted it in the 1970s, it does seem these days as if all the shoes made have this clearance included. However, if your alloy shoes are OK, you can simply get them relined.
Stuart,
As Horror says the brake drums are expensive, in the last few years i have brought both. The made in England ones are a lot better quality. The far eastern ones look ok but have poor threads and are made from some dodgy cast iron. So for another £30 you get a quality drum. Shoes are as Rik says you need an odd one for the front to clear the speedo drive.
You look to have found a good find, once its sorted you will enjoy it. Me and the boss went over to Normandy with the 1935 16H had a great time even Mrs W was thrashing the bike around the beach on D day, did between 50 and 100 miles a day without any bother.
Tim W
email (option): t.j.walker@btinternet.com
Thanks Guys !
I've sourced the bearings, and will probably pull the pin on a quality drum !
The brake shoes on the front were'nt recessed and had a cork plugging up the speedo drive hole, and the rear has 2 recessed shoes, maybe new linings are the go and switching them back correctly!
As you can see from the photos new rims are a given !
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Cheers Stu
email (option): stuartcameron66@hotmail.com
Stuart,
Your rims are knackerd as photos, before you go any further measure the offset on each rim. even if your wheel builder says he knows the offset measure then anyway. As Ian says its a big chunk of the restoration cost and it has to be right.. If its a WD restoration its not a problem as all one colour but a civilian job is a different job and costs are a lot higher so this part of the job has to be right. The number of part restoration jobs i see for sale with new wheels and not the correct offset are common. Trick is drop your wheels into the frame before you send them off and make sure both rims are central to the frame spine, then measure the offset before you send them off for rebuild.
Tim W
email (option): t.j.walker@btinternet.com
Tim
I will definately measure offsets before dropping off wheels!
Lex (from here) alerted me to the "butted" spokes and how hard they are to get so hopefully i can save the existing ones, which of course means that i'll be restoring back to WD !
The more time i spend on here the more i'm liking green !
I'll just tell the rivet counters my civvie forks were a "one off" for a general
Stu
email (option): stuartcameron66@hotmail.com
Hello Brainstrust !
I was checking my wheel offset before sending wheels off to be repaired and thought i'd measure rim size while i was at it !
The parts list has 26'' x 3.25'' front and rear and i've got 20'' x 2.75'' i'm measuring outside to outside of rim !
Am i missing something ?
Cheers Stu
email (option): stuartcameron66@hotmail.com
Yes Stuart. The parts list will be telling you the wheel size including the tyre. It's an old way of doing it. You should have 19" rims and the 2.75 will be WM2 size. Ron
email (option): ronpier@talk21.com
Thank You Ron !
email (option): stuartcameron66@hotmail.com
A few progress shots!
Waiting for a rear mudguard end piece, rear carrier and the weather to turn to get some colour !
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The magdyno has been sent off for re conditioning, and i'm getting stuck into the gearbox and engine !
Any criticism's, suggestion's welcome !
Cheers Stu
email (option): stuartcameron66@hotmail.com
Hi Stuart, glad to see you're making progress
A couple of things I've noticed, are you sure this is a 1941 WD frame..? What's the number? The forks are definitely civvie with the rubber mounted handlebars, large side damper knob amd brake drum on the right. This might make routing the speedo cable difficult as it's on the far left for the WD set-up. The frame is earlier than 1941 as it doesn't have the sidestand lug and the 8" headlight would be on an earlier bike too. None of this will make any difference to putting it together but it would be good to know what the bike is.
email (option): horror@blueyonder.co.uk
Thank's Horror !
Ive had the frame dated thru the NOC, its W33776 ! Apparently the forks are 1939 civilian and yes i need to modify the bracket to the right hand side !
My handlebars are also a little out of alignment so ill persuade them back into shape along with the rear guard which looks a bit askew !
Did i see side-stand lugs in the for sale section ?
Cheers Stu
email (option): stuartcameron66@hotmail.com
A quick look in the bible says it's contract V.7353 made june/july 1940. I've worked out the tank C number to be C4393802
email (option): horror@blueyonder.co.uk
Yes Stuart it's here. I only have one left.
http://pub37.bravenet.com/forum/static/show.php?usernum=3155626639&frmid=9030&msgid=1322446&cmd=show
Your original left side foot peg lug would be used for the field stand. An additional lug is bolted on just in front of it for the foot peg.
Ron
email (option): ronpier@talk21.com
Hi Horror
That's interesting, Rik thought it to be C4393808 contract 7353 ....I'm a long way off putting finishing details on anything
Thanks Ron, pm sent !
Cheers Stu
Stuart the lug is saved for you. I'm with Horror on your C number calculation. But of course Rik might well have better information. Ron
email (option): ronpier@talk21.com
Stu, I can only apologise for that. C4393802 is indeed correct. Either I misread my notes or it was a typo.
In my defence, I did send you a copy of the contract record card. I'd suggest double checking everything !
This contract is sometimes referred to as 'V'(Vehicle) 7353 and sometimes with a 'C' prefix as per most of the contemporary motorcycle contracts. My feeling is that the 'C' is correct.
Oh Rik, i held you on such a high pedestal, 6 numbers out !
You did send me the contract card, and no i didn't check it
but i would have before getting numbers made !
Thanks for all the input guys, really appreciate it !
Cheers Stu
email (option): stuartcameron66@hotmail.com