Hi
I came across an unusual photo in a book I am reading of a BEF period BSA WM20 fitted with a paraffin rear train lamp on a bracket to the offside rear of the bike. Can upload it because I do not know how but has anyone else come across this previously?
Andrew
email (option): andrew.tizzard@asarchaeology.com
Could it be Corps of Military Police with a traffic control lantern carried somewhere on the rear ? There are several views of those attached in different ways ready for use.
I'll happily post a photo for you if you mail it to me.
email (option): 79x100@gmail.com
Hi Andrew,
Here's a CMP Norton-
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Is that a simular sort of lamp?
Here's my take on it-
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Cheers, Mick.
email (option): mick@motorbikemike.org.uk
Nice!
email (option): unpob@yahoo.com
I think that about sums it up! Might do it on my early WM20 - make a change!
email (option): andrew.tizzard@asarchaeology.com
Hi Rik. I have sent a scan of the picture to you, could you have a look and let me know what you think and post it please. Cheers Andy 
email (option): andrew.tizzard@asarchaeology.com
Regardless of the lamps (which were standard issue for provost units on Traffic Control), the tin hat under the pack cross-straps makes a nice piece of period-correct stowage and gives some luggage capacity on the early carriers.
Two leather (later webbing) straps were part of each machine's equipment.
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please excuse the fading light in the photo, but it gives the general idea
Andrew, I've just seen your latest post and received the mail. A fascinating photograph and not one that I've seen before. Which book is it from ?
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The Arm of Service serial '109' with a GHQ bar underneath indicated 101 Provost Company which confirms the Corps of Military Police connection.
email (option): 79x100@gmail.com
Fascinating indeed. Could that be the poor rider laying behind it?
Hey Rik, the storage capacity was why I went down this route. I would like to put on some CMP markings of some sort, do you know where I could find details?
Also, where could I find the correct leather straps?
Cheers, Mick.
email (option): mick@motorbikemike.org.uk
Looks like some kind of sign (folding, for the use of)laying under the back wheel. I wonder if they were directing (or preparing to) traffic close to a front?
Hi Rik,
Thanks for posting the photo, plus information - glad it appears of interest! As for the book it can be found between p.64-65 'PHANTOM' by Philip Warner (My 'pet' interest regiment).
Andrew
email (option): andrew.tizzard@asarchaeology.com
Hey Rik, the storage capacity was why I went down this route. I would like to put on some CMP markings of some sort, do you know where I could find details?
Also, where could I find the correct leather straps?
Cheers, Mick.[/quote]
Mick, my first thought was that it could be the rider lying with the bike. Unfortunately, CWGC's records are a bit hit and miss in terms of 'secondary units' and whilst there are a number of unallocated CMP casualties, there are none specifically listed as 101 Provost Company (there are a number from 105 Provost who were also employed on Lines of Communication provost duties). I might have to put out a request for 101's War Diaries.
Your bike with the pannier tool boxes is of course a little too late for BEF markings. I have a copy of the June 1941 Home markings lists from the National Archives. You can pretty well choose from Independent Brigade, Divisional, Corps or Command Provosts with the advantage that at this early-war period, you can correctly display a formation sign as well. What sort of CMP unit are you thinking of ? Let me know and I'll dig something out.
The straps were pretty standard MT items - LV7.MT1/13845 - Straps leather with buckle 1" x 42"
These later changed to 42" webbing straps. They seem to be the usual sort of pinkish brown saddlery straps that would soon have darkened down with dubbin. I'd be inclined to get a saddler to make some up - No chromed buckles though !
email (option): 79x100@gmail.com
Thanks for posting the photo, plus information - glad it appears of interest! As for the book it can be found between p.64-65 'PHANTOM' by Philip Warner (My 'pet' interest regiment).
Andrew[/quote]
Thanks Andrew. Is there much BEF Phantom stuff in it ? They played a very important rôle in the campaign but it was of course a short one... Is there a photo source given ?
My fascination is with the BEF but I don't have Warner's France & Flanders book. The general impression seems to be that it wasn't one of his better efforts.
email (option): 79x100@gmail.com
Evening Rik
PHANTOM by Philip Warner is in my opinion OK as a basis for background research but offers little other than a rewrite/amalgamation of other peoples earlier work i.e. not much original! There is not much, if anything, about BEF which has not been already written elsewher, the better book and the bible, for me anyway, is 'PHANTOM WAS THERE' by R Hills 1951. Many years ago I bought from a little militaria shop in Maidstone, Kent a huge bundle of original documents relating to Phantom, not realising their importance I traded them on - the biggest regret I have! I did some research for the History Channel a few years ago on Phantom but unfortunately the programme to my knowledge never saw the light of day.
There is always a request on my company website, well Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/asarchaeologyandheritageservices)link for information relating to Phantom - to date I have received no real information!
The problem with Warner's book is that he shows pictures without detailed information which leads or implies they are Phantom associated where in fact they are just generally illustrative of a period in WW2 - it is worth a read, but Hill's 1951 one book is terrific, it should be as he was a Phantom operative.
Will have to do some more research....
Andy
email (option): andrew.tizzard@asarchaeology.com
Thanks, Andrew. I feared as much with Warner. Generally the same old mis-captioned photos appear in the 'Dunkirk' books. I'm really not sure where this one comes from though.
GHQ Liason Regt. pops up regularly and tantalisingly in other War Diaries and British forward intelligence seems to have been quite good. Unfortunately of course, the French equivalent wasn't and it took them a while to even realise that the Meuse had been crossed and they'd been outflanked.
Hills book is not inexpensive on the internet sites and presumably the 1940 section is fairly light ? I'll have to find it by traditional means, I think.
email (option): 79x100@gmail.com
Rik.
If you have not read 'Phantom Was There' by Hill's it is a good read and without doubt illustrates Phantom's role in accurately reporting Allied troop movements during BEF operations. Phantom was able to eliminate the wide differences in intelligence gathering techniques (where they existed) between the BEF and French, Belgium & Dutch in order to be so effective in delivering up to date information to the British HQ's. Their first big 'scoop' was the reporting of the German crossing of the Maastricht Bridges.
To their credit it was during the BEF that Phantom proved the importance of close liaison between RAF & Army units. Although they lost their way and identity somewhat post Dunkirk they did evolve through the jealousies and suspicions of other British Army Commands to become highly valued. During the Desert campaign the 8th Army's 'J' Service almost served notice on 'Phantom', however they evolved as a unified forward intelligence/signalling service which learnt valuable lessons from each other. As the book title implies 'Phantom' was there - ubiquitous!
Anyway must not turn this into a personal preaching forum!
Andrew
email (option): andrew.tizzard@asarchaeology.com
Phantom Signals is a very interesting Subject, but what I would still like to know what they kept in the tool box's of their BSA M20s that meant that they needed to be locked?
Rob
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email (option): robmiller11(at)yahoo.co.uk