Good afternoon

I own BSA WM20 frame 1435 engine 30982 - although the two numbers seem eons apart, both almost certainly belong to 1940, albeit the frame early and engine late.

My bike started life as a BSA M21 Deluxe (matching frame and engine numbers 1435) which was 'apparently' delivered to the Dutch Army/Government on 06/03/40. How it came back to the UK and did not end up as a German machine is anyone's guess, I am told the date is sufficiently early for it to have been delivered - but who knows!

The original frame number has been carefully removed and WM20 1435 stamped slightly above, this may have been done the other way around to ensure correct numbering. It has a tank number of 1460971 (major rebuild job), this number, the frame and engine number (30982)match army records and Green Log Bk - so must be correct.

If, as it seems likely it had its engine changed to a standard 500cc at an early stage and the bike was 'militarised' could the engine (30982) have been its original 1940 rebuild one? I can find no likely Contract details, does anyone know if and how impressed machines were dealt with, did they immediately receive a C14.... number instead of contract number as an identifier or was a contract number issued which is no longer identifiable? Does anyone know when C14 numbers were first used, the standard C41.... census numbers had just started in 1940, is it a leap of 'faith' to suggest the rebuild '14' number sequence was just a reversal of the '41' numbers to show a convenient comparison start date which was continued throughout the war. I do accept there are difficulties with this argument as the rebuild numbers seem to jump all over the place regarding machine dates! I would also imagine with the loss of so much equipment at Dunkirk and the impressing and seizure of so many showroom or non-standard machines outside MOS contract some urgent system was needed to cope with such an influx of machines.

There is an awful lot here to consider, I hope I have made some sense of my ramblings!

Many thanks for those patient enough to read and maybe reply!

Andrew

email (option): andrew.tizzard@asarchaeology.com

Andrew, the rivet-counters and number-nuts seem to be in short supply this evening. It is a puzzle but I can clarify some aspects.

When you refer to 'army records', do you mean the post-war 'Key Cards' ? I've never seen one that shows both engine and frame numbers. They're supposed to show the chassis number for 'B' vehicles but I've sometimes wondered whether the engine numbers were shown as they regularly match the contract numbers given whereas the (non-rebuild) census numbers don't.

If your frame has been re-stamped then there is no guarantee that it has been done correctly - there could be a missing digit. The 'Key Cards' were compiled in 1947/48 from the vehicles themselves and any incorrect stamping would simply have been entered into the records. Is the rebuild number actually on the tank as well ?

I've found no evidence of the full rebuild system coming into place prior to the inception of REME in 1942. This doesn't mean that parts didn't get mixed up before, just that it wasn't systematic and there doesn't seem to have been the sophisticated system of re-manufacturing.

An M21 in 1940 is likely to have been allocated to a second-line unit and would have been used until such time as it needed attention. There is no evidence of perfectly good 600cc engines being removed. generally these 'oddities' were passed on down to organisations like Home Guard or other Ministries.

The allocation of the 1400000 series numbers to rebuild motorcycles seems to have been co-incidence. The lower 1000000 series were a continuation of the pre-war RASC numbers and then they seem to have issued lots of 1200000 numbers to trailers. From there on, there were lots issued in blocks to foreign forces up to 1368210 (Dutch, Polish, etc.) and the following blocks were issued to rebuilds :-

C1400000 - 1499999 - Rebuilt Motorcycles
M1500000 - 1599999 - Rebuilt Cars
Z1600000 - 1699999 - Rebuilt Trucks
-1700000 - 1799999 - Rebuilt Lorries & Tractors

The motorcycle allocation seems to have been based on them starting with the smallest vehicles.

Your rebuild number is some 60000 into this system which might imply that it was a later war issue ? C1441953 was photographed in The Netherlands in 1944 but of course with no indication of when the rebuild had taken place.

None of which is a lot of help, I'm afraid.

Thanks Rik

There is a reasonable amount of evidence that the bike/frame was an early one and if it is the one shown in the delivery ledgers for Frame 1435 it was in Holland 03/40. Other information comes from the Green Card system which I know is really only a record of the 'mish-mash' that probably occurred post-war.

You just really confirmed what I thought, will probably never really know much, but thanks for your reply!

Andrew

email (option): andrew.tizzard@asarchaeology.com

Andrew, there are odd examples of ex-BEF vehicles being recovered after four years of Wehrmacht service. It's not impossible that an M Series BSA (even and ex-Dutch example)could have ended up in confiscated stock on one of those huge end-of-the-war dumps and that a straight frame found its way into the BAOR rebuild system.

I have no evidence for it but it's not beyond the realms of possibility. If we consider the millions of displaced persons in Europe at the end of the war, it would be odd if there weren't a few displaced motorcycles as well...

An ex Army motorcyclist who lived in my village was issued with an 'ex BEF' 'ex Wermacht' M20 in Normandy some time after D Day....

He started out as a lorry driver but after getting injured in an accident he couldn't bend his leg enough to get into the cab...so they made him a motorcyclist as he could still do that!

The bike, when issued, was still in the 'Feldgrau' finish apart from where the German markings had been painted over...

He rode the bike through France and into Holland where a 'near miss' artillery shell blew him off it near Nijmegan bridge, on the Market Garden operation....

By the time he came out of hospital the bike had gone and he was issued with a 'normal' one....Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

That is very interesting! You can just make-out where the old numbers were 'M21 14..' so it is obviously the correct machine.

One of the most difficult questions to answer has always been how if it went to the Dutch Army on 06/03/40 did it find its way back here when nearly everything the British Army had was abandoned in Belgium etc.. This could offer real possibilities, be nice to see/find some photographs or evidence for this practice.

Thanks

email (option): Andrew.Tizzard@asarchaeology.com

The other point to consider is how best to accurately portray it. As stated in an earlier post I do know its C14.... number from the Key Cards and an odd Contract number!

Andrew

email (option): Andrew.Tizzard@asarchaeology.com

email (option): robmiller11(at)yahoo.co.uk

I was thinking the same thing. As far as I know, an M21 has an M20 frame with an M21 engine. By the same token, the 'C' range (C10-C11-C12) are all prefixed C10 on the frame. Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

True..and some pre war examples used the M19 frame number as well I think......Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

I was talking rubbish and not checking properly, it comes down to not getting carried away and even more so don't do the checking in semi-dark. The numbers are very faint probably can just make out the '14' what the rest says could be anything - even a shopping list!

The more I look into it, the more I think this bike never left these shores and somehow found its way onto contract C7287, the dates are correct, the engine number and Contract number work well for the series on the Key Cards as would the fact it remained here to be numbered as a WM20. The German element whilst a possibility is in my opinion a much less likely scenario. Whilst I accept Key Card data is somewhat suspect at best an awful lot of machines from Contract C7287 have reasonably similar C14 numbers, moreover it appears it was the earlier Contract number (C6126, C5610, C or S 7287 etc.) bikes (1939-40) which appear to have been rebuilt sharing a similar range of C14 numbers. That said many appear not to have been rebuilt at all retaining their original tank number!

Oh well - we will never know for sure - good to play with ideas though!

Andrew

email (option): andrew.tizzard@asarchaeology.com

...and here's what is probably a picture of one of the elusive Dutch M21s, published in November 1940. Hand change and valanced front guard, together with the census number (C)419216* certainly point in this direction.

A sub-machine gun and hand change can't have been an easy combination !



The Arm of Service serial '56' would have been on a red ground and indicated an Infantry battalion within the senior brigade but there is no divisional formation sign visible.

Hi Rik, that is one of the best and most important pictures I have seen.

But it represents two possibilities

1. If the C number has an unseen 7th digit it would be part of contract C7370 and could be an impressed Delux M20 or M21 from the BSA factory or dealership.

2. If the C number is a complete 6 digit number from block 400,000 to 500,000 which is mentioned in Rob van Meels reprint "Allocation by Central Census B Vehicle WD Numbers" as "Not taken up" but which Rob has noted A Royal Enfield an Ariel and a Velocette with numbers from this block.

I wonder if the original picture was cropped for the article and if a larger version still exists?

Rob

email (option): robmiller11(at)yahoo.co.uk

Rob, glad that you liked it. I can track down the original publication and will mail you.

Had it not been for the correspondence on this thread, I probably wouldn't have made the link.

I must admit that I hadn't thought about an (albeit unissued) six-digit series. I assume that RvM's notes are based on interpretation of photos and there are other possible explanations.

If the Royal Enfield C432845 had a '0' or '1' on the end, it would fit with the RE Contract C7972 or a Various makes contract.

The Ariel would only need a '1' in front to be a rebuild number and the Velocette an extra digit at the end to be Velocette contract C10973.

All of these could easily be invisible on a photo.

Cheers,

Rik