Just received my "old bike mark" and a quick scan through left me feeling a bit puzzled.

In the private adds there are two M20s for £3,500, first one 1942 recently rebuilt with UK docs, second one 1943 used regularly, very reliable rebuilt ect ect.

Where as the dealers have a 1940 M20 for £5,250, a 1941 G3L for £5,000 and a 1943 16H for £8,500

Quite a difference, I realise that every bike has to be judged on its own merits but I have heard some horror stories of bikes bought from dealers so the truth is it doesn't matter where it comes from you don't really know what you have until you get it home and give it some miles of testing.

I suppose there are other factors, these dealers also have international websites where they can show case their goods to a wider global market?

But it seems to me there is still a sensible enthusiast based market if you bother to look for it here in the UK where you can get what you want at a reasonable price.

Rob

email (option): robmiller11(at)yahoo.co.uk

I think it's always been like that...For as long as I can remember there were 'private' and 'dealer' prices...

The difference was that in the old days you got something for the dealer 'premium' in the form of a guarantee, albeit a limited one...Now you don't get that generally from most dealers...

The fact is if you can find the seller privately before a dealer does you are bound to get a better deal...
Dealers, after all, are buying in the same market as you are, paying the same prices and then just add their profit to the figure...

I guess people in a hurry will always take the 'dealer' route rather than the more sensible 'private' route purely because it's there, they can buy it and they don't have to wander round the country looking....Ian

A reasonable difference between private and dealer prices is how the system has always worked but the the price differences now are extreme. One aspect that might be a factor is that any older motorcyclists who aren't on the internet no longer have access to the previous level of mass-media for advertising.

It's also probably the case that the pikey dealers are offering them silly low money in the hope of a huge rather than decent mark-ip. In addition, there is a small hard-core of dodgy-dealer types who are speculatively trying to push the market up, rather than operating within it. Some of those dealer prices for tat are laughable and then they dare to say that they can't offer a warranty.

I'm not quite sure how the economics of the motorcycle trade work but I'd have assumed that a reasonably quick turnover of stock was a good thing. The expensive Norton has been advertised for six months or so and it's a machine which we know from the forum is reasonably sought-after. That it wsn't snapped up as soon as it went on sale must surely indicate that the price is far above what the market will stand.

Having listened to his sales-spiel, I'm convinced that the seller in question thinks the punters are mugs. Maybe he's right.

its the same thing with classic cars, dealers prices will be a lot more than a private seller but a dealer probably could offer a finance package and you might get some warranty.
i once restored a 1962 morris oxford farina in 2003, it was one owner from new and had only done 1400 miles with big history file up to 1975, i won classic car shows and all sorts.
about a year later, as i was more involved in banger racing and couldant look after the car as much as i wanted to, i decided to sell it on and let some one give it the love it needs, at this time the car had done just over 1500 miles, i ended up selling it to a classic car dealer and i spoes it was a good price to at the time, i let it go for £1800, a month later that same dealer had it for sale on his car lot for £4200, it sold just like that to be honest i was a bit gutted.
it goes to show that dealers prices are higher.
barry

email (option): mrsbfuller@hotmail.co.uk

it seems to me the more work needed on a bike the more money it fetches a frame and one wheel will cost you as much as an bike in fair condition

email (option): roger.beck@node6.com

The thing to remember about the gulf between dealer prices and private sales is, as Ian mentioned (I think) in this thread, simply patience.

There is no fixed price for a motorcycle, or anything else. There is usually a lower limit, and upper limit, and a huge gulf in the middle.

Dealers can't get fast turnover stock anymore. Private sellers have equal access to the world. So dealers have to push the prices constantly to make a living.

Therefore the dealer has to be more patient. He knows that there is ALWAYS someone willing to pay above the TYPICAL or AVERAGE market price, and that price is usually (but not always) a reflection of how fast a bike will sell.

For instance, a half decent WM20 might sell for £3,500 within a month.
At around £2,000 that bike will perhaps sell in a day, or maybe a few days.
At £200 it will sell in minutes.
At £5,000 it will sell eventually. Maybe three months. Maybe a year. But the dealer knows that if he waits, a sale will follow. And if he waits a year to make an extra £1,500, that's money earned.

It's no use making just £500 profit on a bike if you can't easily replace it. You have to sell high and make every sale really count.

So what's the true price of an M20? Simple. Just work out how fast you want it to sell.

email (option): dannydefazio@sumpmagazine.com

you got that spot on.
i some times sell some plant machinery and if i wait that person will come along and pay that top price, well i big profit for me any way, it may take a week or a month to sell.

email (option): mrsbfuller@hotmail.co.uk

Don't get me wrong I'm not saying a dealer shouldn't make a good profit on a bike, if they buy for £3,000 and sell for £5,000 a year later they haven't actually cleared £2,000 profit after haulage and storage and even if they did good luck to them.

My point is that it doesn't matter how many bikes of any type the dealers snap up to make a profit on there are still plenty left in private hands for everyone.

There are reasonably priced WD bikes for sale today and there will be tomorrow, you don't have to pay top price to a dealer.

Patience is definitely the key. Rob

email (option): robmiller11(at)yahoo.co.uk

One of the problems is that the bargains in the press are often gone before we get to see them. I'd say that the key to this game is contacts...help others out and there is a good chance that you'll be among the first to hear when something decent comes along.

When I was looking for a rigid or plunger Norton single I went see an ES2 a dealer was advertising near the top end of the price range (£6500). He said it had come from a dead blokes family, so I bet he hadn't paid much for it. The dead bloke had used it a bit, it was a nice runner, but had plenty of non original and poorly fitting parts which the dead bloke had put on just to make the bike a road worthy goer for him to potter around on Sunday mornings
The dealer kept saying the price reflected the work and money that had been put into the bike and that that amount of money would only otherwise buy a mundane modern bike so the price was a realistic reflection what it cost to get an old bike on the road. Well he might have been able to kid himself, but he wasn't kidding me.
I later got a really nice tidy Norton model 19 rigid for £4200 that I heard about through the 'mates' network
The ES2 was soon sold so I guess somebody was willing to listen to the sales blab and pay the price.

The dealer was selling from his home, which was like a small palace, and he certainly seemed to have a nice lifestyle, payed for no doubt by people in a rush to buy the first bike they see at any price.

We are still in a 'rising market' as well, as the classic bike 'investment' roadshow continues to roll...

Depending on what you are looking for that 'patience' might cost you an extra 10-20% of the purchase price over 12 months...

It alsop comes down to how often what you are looking for comes up as well, It's not all about the price..

If for example you were offered a very nicely restored, well sorted and original spec. M20 at something over the market price you'd be a mug not to at least consider it...REALLY GOOD bikes don't actually come along all that often in many cases....

There is also an argument that in a rising market you can't pay too much if you plan to keep the bike...you just pay it too soon...Over time prices will catch up..
If you had paid £6000 (a high price) for a good M20 5 years ago it would now be worth that...Ian

Ian is right (no pun intended), If you want a bike or anything else for that matter that is not being made anymore just buy the best example you can afford and keep it, you may have paid a bit more but unless the economic model changes you will have what you want and can gloat at others in years to come at the prices they have to pay.
Rest assured that all the stuff that you and I considered junk years ago will fetch a premium in the future, the dealers just exploit this.
ps. by the way, nice clutch plates, thanks
Richard

Richard has a good point on what to pay. I have always heard that you never pay to much for an antique item, you might have bought it to soon for that price.
One of the few, Frank USMC RET

I've done the same with antique guns, I was after a particular type of gun but the price for a good one was high so I bought a bit of a rough one at half the price. Then another came along just a bit better, again for about half the price. Then I realised I had 2 rough guns that had cost me the price of a good one and I still wanted a good one
If you want something that's worth having, you just have to bite the bullet and spend the money and get the best you can afford.

email (option): horror@blueyonder.co.uk

I think this is getting away from my original point.

I agree a better bike or gun will cost more than a rough one.

But if a gun dealer buys a rough gun, fits an Indian made barrel and trigger, resprays it and puts it in his posh gun shop at twice the price you aren't necessarily getting a better deal.

Rob

email (option): robmiller11(at)yahoo.co.uk

If all you are talking about is 'private' versus 'dealer' prices then the fact that a dealer buys in the private market himself and then has to apply a mark up to make a profit basically explains the price differentials..

The degree of that differential depends ultimately on the dealer himself, how much he wants to make, and how long he is prepared to wait for a suitable customer...

People will buy at those higher prices because..
a) They haven't done their homework and don't know the range of the market price for a given bike..
b)Are in a hurry to get a bike and don't want to spend a lot of time waiting and looking at bikes on the private market...(and travelling to look at bikes can lead to substantial costs in itself)
or c) the dealer has something they don't think they will find somewhere else (rare) or is in a condition they don't think they will find somewhere else (unrestored and 'original' or fully restored and well sorted)...

There always was and always will be a cheaper deal out there somewhere on the private market..but can every buyer find it or do they even want to look?...

Also you will find high prices on the private market...I've seen that enough times.
It's not a case of a constant clear cut differential...The difference can run from a large one to nothing depending on the seller....Ian