Hi All

Have been following this site for a while and never got round to inroducing myself properly.

My name is Martyn Hillyard and am the owner of two bikes: 3RD Contract Welbike and a 1940 BSA M20.

I have been doing lots of work on the bike over the past few months and for several weeks now have been trying to get it started. I have replaced carb needle, jets etc. and fuel is getting to the plug. I have also replaced the plug for good measure (yes it sparks) but I still can't seem to get the bike running.

I get a few coughs like its going to start if i kick it over with the throttle closed but nothing at all if i open the throttle at all.

I don't know if the plug is being drowned in fuel or it is an ignition issue. Have tried all different carb setting but cant seem to get any joy at all. If it is ignition problems I have no idea where to start!

Have been scouring the web for similar problems but can't find one like it so hope you can help!

Many thanks, and hope this all makes sense!



Martyn Hillyard

email (option): martynhillyard@msn.com

It Hasn't wet sumped by any chance has it, I helped a guy with one of these as a non start and it had badly wet sumped, oil was being forced up into the head fouling up the plug.

Martin, just undo plug at underside of crankcase and drain off oil, not the oil tank you should get a few dribbles out, then try again, if no joy start looking at timing detail , have you a manual, or visit the previous postings on this subject, Andrew .h.

email (option): warbikes@gmail.com

Martin, just undo plug at underside of crankcase and drain off oil, not the oil tank you should get a few dribbles out, then try again, if no joy start looking at timing detail , have you a manual, or visit the previous postings on this subject, Andrew .h.

email (option): warbikes@gmail.com

yesterday I tried starting my 56 M20 and it had wet sumped about 2 pints of 50! but I persisted and after 50 kicks or so it started, I made a quick exit out of the garage as the resulting smoke cloud enveloped the whole street!
P.S It feel like trying to kickstart a bucket of porridge if it has wetsumped

I haven't got round to plumbing my WM20 as yet, but would it be worth investing in one of these jobbies, or are the wet-sumping issues discussed in this thread uncommon?

Scorp.

email (option): wm20atscorpionvideo.net

yesterday I tried starting my 56 M20 and it had wet sumped about 2 pints of 50! but I persisted and after 50 kicks or so it started, I made a quick exit out of the garage as the resulting smoke cloud enveloped the whole street!
P.S It feel like trying to kickstart a bucket of porridge if it has wetsumped[/quote]

Thanks all for the replies so far! Lots of things to test and mess around with.

Your description of kicking a bucket of porridge does seem to be how it feels so it might be that you are right with the wet sumping idea.

Just thought i'd add that I did get it going a few weeks back for about 30 secconds a couple of times but it ended up just dying out and fuel leaking out of every joint in the carb. I was told this was most likely down to the needle and jets so replaced those. Since then I cant get anything more than a few coughs on closed throttle...

email (option): martynhillyard@msn.com

When the bike is in the garage between rides take out the sump plug and catch the oil in a tray when you ride it again pour oil back in the tank.BUT REPLACE SUMP PLUG.

There is a tiny pin hole for the idle circuit in the jetblock that probably needs to be unblocked.

Been working on it today, drained the sump (lots of oil!) and it started 2nd kick.

Sounded great just need to get out tomorrow and adjust idle etc.

Tried a few times to get it running a few minutes later and didn't suceed but it may have been because it was warm and the carb was flooded or something. Will worry about that tomorrow.

Thanks all for the help so far!

email (option): martynhillyard@msn.com

I've got an anti wet sumping valve on my bike like the one you've shown Sporp. It works really well and screws into the crank case so it's as near the pump as possible. I doubt anyone would notice it if I didn't show them. The good thing with a 16H is it has an oil pressure indicator so I can see the oil is flowing straight away.

You can see it in the picture in the crank case on the top oil line

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email (option): horror@blueyonder.co.uk

Well done on getting it running Martyn. But a point worth mentioning, is that deterioration can occur to a magneto on a bike that has been left standing for time. The first symptom is an engine that starts from cold, but not when hot!

Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Well done on getting it running Martyn. But a point worth mentioning, is that deterioration can occur to a magneto on a bike that has been left standing for time. The first symptom is an engine that starts from cold, but not when hot!

Ron [/quote]

Hi Ron

Thanks for the reply. The magneto should hopefully be ok as I bought it separately elsewhere. Apparantly it had never been used and I got some recepts form "Dave Lindsley Motorcycle Electrical Specialists" which shows the refurb of both the Magneto and Dynamo I bought.

On a bad side I went to start it again today and once again it had wet sumped big time. Most likely going to remove the oil pump, inspect, and replace the gasket.
Other than that i'm not quite sure what to do. Most of the threads on here and elsewhere are simply about the anti wetsump valves, which I can see the attraction of but want to make sure I can't fix it first as I have read the horror stories of them failing. And without a oil pressure guage it could easily happen to me without my knowing.
I read the the intake valve of the oil can sometimes be clogged with dirt but most of the engine has to be taken apart as part of the process.

email (option): martynhillyard@msn.com

Martyn. First and easiest thing to do is check and clean the little ball and spring that is behind the hex plug at the bottom of your timing cover. Take it apart and clean out with rolled up tissue and petrol/thinners and airline. Give the ball a light tap with a punch to create a fresh seat before reassembly. Always best to fit a new ball and spring for the sake of 2-3 quid. But check out your old one first, it might have a load of crud holding the ball off it's seat. Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Hi Martyn...There are two main factors that can affect the engines inclination to wet sump...

1)Anti Drain Valves...
The M20 engine has two anti drain valves to prevent wet sumping. One is a spring loaded ball fitted into the timing cover and is situated 'downstream' from the oil pump..
When the engine is started pressure from the pump lifts the ball off its seat in the timing cover (at approx. 7psi) and allows oil to be supplied throughout the engine...
To access this ball and spring remove the hexagon headed fitting on the timing cover...It is unlikely the spring has ever been replaced, so if you are unsure of that get a new one. (the ball and spring come from C&D Autos as a kit for a couple of pounds)...
When refitting place the ball into the cover until it is sitting on its 'seat'..Then using a parallel punch and hammer, give the ball a light tap to seat it into the casing..then replace the spring and fitting. It is easier to do this with the cover removed...

The second anti drain valve is in the oil pump..The steel 'base plate' of the pump has a small tubular extension that extends into the sump from where the return side of the pump picks up oil. This tube contains a ball, loosely held in place by a small wire clip. When the engine is not running the ball falls onto its seat and a combination of gravity and the weight of the oil behind it keep it on its seat...There is no spring...
To access the ball you will have to remove the oil pump and partially disassemble it by removing the two bolts that hold the pump together. This will release the end plate..Remove the retainer from the tube and the ball can be taken out...Check that the ball is not rusted or damaged and that its seat inside the bottom of the tube is also good...Once this has been established carry out the same procedure to 'seat' the ball and reassemble the pump..Note the pump itself should turn freely by hand...If it is tight it will require attention, but that is another subject. Replace the pump into the cases...Ensure you have spring washers fitted under the pump retaining bolts and do not go too mad tightening them. Screw them in all the way and then give them a 'nip' to finally tighten them....

2)Replace the pump gasket as part of the work described above....

Most BSAs of this type will wet sump if left standing for lengthy periods..However, you should be able to leave the bike for weeks without real problems if everything is correctly set up. When contemplating remedial work follow the 'golden rule' and start with the simplest job first..then test. If there is no improvement then move on to the more involved work ...

My own opinion is that it is best not to use an aftermarket drain valve in the feed side of the system and I have explained my reasoning on the subject more than once in previous posts on the subject...You may be able to search and find these previous posts....Ian

Just a extra to Ian's post, use a soft punch (copper brass ali ) or you may mark the ball reseating it.

Cheers Pat

Many thanks all for this great advice!

Lots to try out, have started by removing the timing cover ball bearing. Have cleaned that now and replaced. The spring seemed quite weak but ran out of time so I replaced it all and will see if it makes any difference. If not I will most likely order the new parts and do the oil pump.

email (option): martynhillyard@msn.com

I use a good anti-wet sump valve and it works great.

On one bike it is an in-line type, and on the other one it is the screw-in type.

I must say that it does scare me, and I always take a look into the oil tank
To see that the return line is spitting back, and also once or twice when I am
waiting on traffic lights, usually.

The problem was that I could never get to a point of the bike's own valves
work good enough. It always drained..
A manual tap was not an option, as I would forget it closed one day and kill the motor,
Or, I will make sure it is opened all the time when riding..

I just thought of another option:
Isn't there a way to fit a hard, oil-resistant rubber ball, or a copper ball which should do a better job?

Any thought?..

I found this site:

http://www.nemb.com/product/other_materials.php

Noam.

email (option): noam10@gmail.com

Think I might have sorted the wet sumping probelem now after cleaning the timing cover valve.
Got it running for a few short intervals this afternoon but didn't like to do much more than that.

Is there any way I should use to make sure oil is circulating first before running for longer, or anything I should check first?

Also going to be looking at some videos to make sure mine is sounding right and there isnt something being worn down that shouldn't.

Thanks all for the help

email (option): martynhillyard@msn.com

Martyn. The most important thing is to check that the oil is spurting back to the tank. You might want to remove your oil filter for this (if you have one fitted). This will prove that the oil pump is working properly. The scavenge side of the oil pump works harder than the feed side. So don't worry if the oil spurts back in fits and starts. As long as it's circulating, put the filter back and take it for a run. Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Many thanks Ron

Will try that out tomorrow. Just felt it was a good idea to ask before going full out on it!

Thanks

email (option): martynhillyard@msn.com

Hello Martyn,

regarding the oil circulation:
When the motor is running, if you look into the oil tank,
You should see "spitting" of oil from the return straw.
there is an horizontal drill at this pipe, about 1cm beneath the top.
the oil kind of drips off it at idle, and spit sideways when motor is revd.

Noam.

email (option): noam10@gmail.com

Got it started again. Oil seems to be circulating fine. Its not perfect and when i started it again a a few minutes later it missed a few beats but its a start. Just need to make sure everything is fine e.g. plug is clean, and then find out how the idle screw works.

Here is a video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRAwg1Zqbeg&feature=youtu.be

email (option): martynhillyard@msn.com