I've noticed over the last few months an increasing number of Norton 16H's or more often large lumps of them being offered for sale on Ebay and other sites. Now, of course, there's nothing wrong with that but these are blatently purporting to be civilian when they are quite obviously wartime. They have the "W" prefix to the engine number, the upright saddle spring mounting, field stand lugs etc but are touted as anything from 1936 to 39. If it quacks like a duck, walks like a duck, looks like a duck.....
By the way I'm not talking about genuine military 16h's that have been civilianised in the past, but ones the owner swears have never been military.
What I can't understand is why? If anything military bikes seem to command a premium in the marketplace, despite genuine civvys being quite rare.
Is this happening to WM20's or other military bikes?

I would surmise that some of these bikes are being touted as "civilian" to add to the "original, unmolested" descriptions (and values) which seem to command more of a premium from the rivet counters. In my observations, that premium seems to translate to increased value. I've seen rusty, crusty and anything but trusty models sell for more than restored models just because they were supposedly original and unrestored. Strange but true. Possibly it is somebody selling them that doesn't realize the military models are commanding higher prices these days than they did in the past when they were looked down upon by most potential buyers.

In the case of Norton 16Hs, I think that civilian models still do command a price premium over WD, perhaps the more so because a civilian bike can be quickly tarted up with new exhaust, a re-chromed tank and a few shiny dangly bits which take the eye off the bits that haven't been attended to.

I think also the fact that WD16Hs were based on the 1936 frame and the 1937 engine make them seem more 'pre-war' than the 1938 and 1939 civilian models with enclosed valves.

As a late 1930s machine, it's probably harder to make a wartime WM20 look pre-war without a lot of expense. WD Nortons shared fuel tank and mudguard profiles with the civilian bikes. Their conservative styling didn't change much from year to year and parts interchangeability is high.

Nortons were a tiny manufacturer during the 1930s - somewhere between 5000 and 10,000 machines per annum so pre-war Nortons are scarce. I think the average VMCC / NOC chappie probably wants a civilian bike for parking outside the pub on Sunday lunchtime.

Keith, if you're referring to the bike currently on eBay, it is more than a civilianised WD bike for which the owner has forgotten to mention the 'W' number prefix. It has non-matching but correct ex-works engine and frame numbers and I'd be inclined to think must have been re-numbered to match an old log-book, complete with cock-and-bull urban legend to back it up.

By the way Vincent, a real 'rivet-counter' knows straight away what he's looking at and wouldn't be taken in at all. It's the 'think they know all about old bikes brigade' who are the problem !

I was approached some time ago to help someone with information about a 16H here in the USA. The seller preached that it was 1939 and was assuring the buyer that it was when in fact it was a late war frame. Now, the seller might not have been trying to pull a fast one either, he might possibly just have been missinformed , but still. Rik, I got you in on that discussion. Seems like it's something that goes on alot, the only way to get around it is to do your research and be sure of what you are buying, or at least ask someone who does know to help you make an informed decision.

Ah Rik, maybe I meant the "experts" rather than rivet counters, I run into guys all the time who know everything about everything, and don't seem too fazed by facts. I know virtually nothing about 16H's so don't claim to be an expert, but perhaps some of these bikes are coming from the East where chrome and flashy paint are signatures of these restorations. Do they seem to be coming from the same seller? Is somebody sitting on a stash of re-imported ex-military models?

It pays you to take someone along on any old bike purchase if you don't know much about them, one of my customers bought a Harley WLA that to anyone that knew about them it was complete and utter junk, but he went along to buy it on his own, now he's about £14000 into the restoration! He's had to replace the frame, the crankcases the con rods, the flywheels , the barrels, the cylinder heads, most of the gearbox internals, the rear wheel, all the camshafts, the exhausts, in fact there is probably only about 10% of the original bike he bought left!

email (option): davmax@ntlworld.com

The funny thing is. If you presented two WD bikes for sale. One at say £6000 that is retored properly with all the correct WD parts and a poorly restored bike at say £4000 with wrong levers/speedo/switch panel etc. and a smoky engine.......The cheaper one will sell first?? Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

I think that a lot of the cheaper bikes are brought because the buyer wants to work on them and not just to ride it and are not worried about its condition or what it cost to put it back together I bet there are a lot of you out there have spent twice as much as what you could get for it me included an example is what the motorcycle show on TV paid for a basket case triumph somewhere near £3750 and about the only thing that wasn't renewed was the frame

email (option): roger.beck@node6.com

Well if your like me your wife has imposed a limit on what you are allowed to buy a bike for....
"What do you need another bike you already have 2 and one of those doesn't work yet"
I'm sure I'm not the only one who has been told that by their better half.

I also wanted a bike to restore, not one already done.
Third point the wife knows what it cost me to buy in non running condition.
SHe will have no idea what I spend on it getting it to the state I'm happy with it................

email (option): tmuir12@gmail.com

Points taken, both Roger and Tony. I had obviously not taken into account the necessity that SWMBO need not know the outlay and also the desire...nay addiction for jumbles Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

I didn't have a her indoors I am single size of my shed/garage limited me 7 bikes I got fed up shuffle them about to get to the one I wanted to either work on or ride I am down to 2 now and have decided to give it up doing rebuilds though most of the bikes I had would have been 2 third done no basket cases for me a 1998 Enfield is keeping me busy at the moment will not start without 10 to 15 kicks

email (option): roger.beck@node6.com

I have been asked many times about the quality of 16H's being offered for sale the last 10 odd years.

The sellers are many times nitwits, blatant liers or down right honestly ignorant althought some even pretend to be experts on old bikes.

In the past I used to try to make factual comments on certain bikes being offered throught the internet in a the most humble and decent way I could in order to help the buyers to actually know what was offered.
The retorts I sometimes got from the sellers were enough to make Richard P. say "I would not pee on him if he was on fire".

Because of the persons being either obvious crooks or indecent idiots I stopped giving comments about bikes for sale to the sellers.
I would not be surprised if they tried to harm my website because of it, and I feel it is not worth that.

Basically, its the buyer who should inform himself properly. I am always prepared to help in an appreciation of WD16H MC's, but even then it is up to the buyer to make the decision.
With the internet now it is much more easy to know something about the subject than 30 years ago. There is no real excuse to let yourself become the victim of devious sellers anymore.


Cheers,

Rob

email (option): wd16h@telfort.nl

['With the internet now it is much more easy to know something about the subject than 30 years ago. There is no real excuse to let yourself become the victim of devious sellers anymore.']....

You're right of course Rob...I frequently advise people not to be in too much of a rush to buy and to 'do their homework' on the model of their choice BEFORE buying...
Human nature being what it is though, that often isn't the way it is and only later do they realise they have bought the wrong one....Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com