hi everyone! I recently bought an M20. The person i bought it from imported it to the states from belgium in crates and then never reassembled it... I was told it was a 1938, but the only frame markings i found were M20 4473. My real question though is why is there a factory cast in SA monogram where the B.S.A. is usually cast into the timing cover?! It also has the same S over A or A over S monogram half way up the cover, but that one seems to have been applied onto the cover, but seems as old as the bike as well. Either way, the lower one is cast into the cover. Here is a link to a photo of it.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/97939602@N07/

thanks!

not sure but something in the back of my mind say its from either a lawn mower or stationary engine

email (option): roger.beck@node6.com

Hi, looks like someone has tried to turn a M20 engine into a Sturmey Archer one. Are you sure that the lower one is factory cast or could it be engraved?

Michiel / NL

Hmmmmm. The engine came as an entire bike, i just didnt take pictures of the rest so i am not sure if stationary engine works. The lower markings are definitely cast into the cover and i dont see any signs of filing or removing the BSA that is normally there.

The timing cover comes in a lot variations one of which is no BSA logo,

email (option): wariron@tpg.com.au

http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n25/fanny_pants/KIMG0364.jpg


here is a photo of the frame. The engine and frame numbers have been changed. I am interested to see what the import papers looked like but i will have to wait a couple weeks for them. I know the person i bought it from had the bike imported from belgium and thats about it. I will take some more pictures later.

Sturmy Archer engines of that size were used in industrial applications.

all you need to do is change the cover, however, whats that going on around the inlet port?


I have seen loads of this sort of thing on continental bikes; people tend to forget between the 1940s and 1960s they were just mechanical objects of no interest. Bike engines or parts of bikes used for sawbenches, farm trucks all sorts of gizzmos.

No one ever thought they would be of historic interest or even a bike worth saving.

If I had a fiver for every ratty M20 I have scrapped broken dumped or left behind in 50 years messing with bikes, I could afford to buy one these days.

email (option): deadsheds@yahoo.com

so is it definitely a sturmy archer engine? What you see around the intake is an oil line wrapped around.

The former owner bought the bike in belgium maybe 30 years ago. Is is possible that this bike was originally sold in belgium as a sturmey archer and not as a BSA? there are no other BSA logos on the bike. The original knee rubbers dont even say BSA but are blank instead.

I would have thought the most likely explanation is that this is an industrial version of the M20 engine (or at least that's where the timing cover came from.)
The 'SA' is not the same pattern as the Sturmey Archer logo (at least the ones I could find), so I wouldn't get too fixated with that unless an identical logo turns up on a SA publication...

The BSA Clifford engine also had a 'non standard' timing cover, so it seems BSA were happy enough to give the customer what they wanted in that respect.
There were a number of known different applications for the 'industrial' M20 engine...and no doubt there were ones which are now lost in history. After all, BSA were always very active in selling to fleet and industrial users...

There is no chance that the M20 motor was marketed as a Sturmey Archer unit I wouldn't have thought...Firstly why would BSA do that?..and secondly Sturmey were a manufacturer of engines and gearboxes in their own right, they didn't need to rebadge a BSA engine.
Also, Sturmey engines are generally from an earlier period than the M20....Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

The frame looks like a standard early war WDM20 frame....Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Sturmy Archer were part of the Raliegh empire, rivals of BSA.
why would they sell a BSA marked as their opposition?

You are clutching at straws I'm afraid.

Years ago I used to deal with bikes in Spain, now if you really want to see now many bits of different bikes can be made into one............. especially during the Franco years........

You need to brush up on history, there is a reason why there are so few pre-war bikes over there, and so many 1939-1945 English made bikes, their home made stuff went to scrap or got cannibalised.... they got all those bikes left at Dunkirk?

I wonder if the Belgian owner worked a flanker and passed his bike off as a Sarolea? or fitted this engine into one?


ps something about the design of the SA doesnt ring true to me, and niggling at the back of my mind is a Sarolea logo very similar, can't find one though

email (option): deadsheds@yahoo.com

You could always change your name by deed poll to Steve Andrews or Andy Stewart or whatever

Ken, I think that you're pretty much in the right area. Someone who posts on here regularly has a WD motorcycle which was registered in France as a 1920s FN. It even had an enamel FN badge rivetted to the headstock !

The 'S' made me think of Sarolea too.

I'd think it most likely that the bike was abandoned / liberated/ bought on the black market and assumed the identity of a clapped out pre-war bike at a time when import tarifs, taxes and registration were costly. Once it had the wrong numbers and assuming that the village policeman was on nodding terms then then there would have been little chance of being caught.

The British alter frame numbers because of the 'cherished numbers' game. The Belgians do it so that they can ride 920 big bore Commandos using the papers from a Norton Jubillee !

I too will be interested to know what it's registered as. Still, it's easy to put a proper timing cover on and this one will make a nice ornament.

Hi Mr Oddballaffliction,i will swap you a WD cover Or the later winged cover for it if you don't like it ,i think its quite niffty
cheers Rick

email (option): richardholt@rocketmail.com

Hi, This is a picture of a Sturmey Archer 198 cc with the SA logo from the late 20/early 30.

Now I don't know about clutching at straws but...
I have a BSA Bicycle, no idea of how old, 1930's to 1959's I suspect, but it has Drum brakes-
of Sturmey Archer origin. They appear to be a part of the original
specification. All linkages, levers, rods etc appear original. Eventually BSA sold off bicycle production to Raleigh I believe, who still sold the BSA bicycles, so I don't think they were that bitter of rivals.

"The Belgians do it so that they can ride 920 big bore Commandos using the papers from a Norton Jubillee" Rik

A copy of the above has been sent to Inspector Poirot's office. Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Yep Sturmey Archer.
I knew that I had seen that logo before but could not put my finger on it.
Typically I was looking at it back wards ( AS ) thinking along the lines of Armstrong Siddley, Archer & Stowe etc.
A very high possability that it was an attempt to flog off ex wd M20's as Sturmeys post WWII when you could buy a box full of M20 engines for a fiver.
A much cheaper way of getting "your" product to market starved for small engines.
Ransome's used to use M20 engines in some of their agricultural equipment and they all had " Ransome " timing covers.
These have RM cast into the timing cover & were painted green.
I suspect some of the M20's with green painted cases are frames married up with a Ransomes engine.
The Sydney Cricket Ground used to have a massive drum mower with such an engine powering it.
Howard engineering in Sydney also used to fit M20 engines to a lot of their small farm equipment because it was cheaper than to use their own engines. These too had a custom side cover usually with a H cast into the cover & either Roto Mow ( slasher) or Roto Hoe ( cultivator) engraved into the bottom where the BSA would usually be.

Remember that very soon aftewr WWII most of Europe put severe import restrictions on engines in order to conserve fuel ( big engines ) and kick start their own manufacturing so if I was a pre WWII Sturmey retailer faced with a ban on importing my product I might consider rebranding surplus as well.

email (option): wariron@tpg.com.au

There is a latterday problem growing whereby would-be restorers are inclined to look for a a complicated or involved answer rather than a simple one ...is there not?

flog off surplus M20 stuff? chuck it in a hole more likely; in the sixties there was a council tip in the Windsor area where the arm would arrive with lorry loads of the stuff and push it out the back.
The guy running the tip showed me where, but they were 20 ft down by then.

Benelux countries were awash with war surplus, france was very protective and imports had huge tariffs; Italy and Germany more interested in small stuff,,

It was too expensive to ship stuff back from the middle east/India so they had plenty of stock which is why so much is being recovered from there.

Its very hard to get across to the under 50's or those in far flung places just what 1940's austerity was really like, everything rationed, no coal, no petrol, a massive export drive of NEW production, most of London living in Bomb damaged houses or on bomb sites; Service men still struggling with injuries or other problems,
It must have been far worse in the recovering battle zones

Few people gave a toss about preserving vehicle history then, surplus M20 engines must have been way down the list.

email (option): deadsheds@yahoo.com

ken talking about dumping equipment and vehicles this happened when Gadhafi kick the British army out of Libya I saw LCTs full of lorries full with equipment tanks and one LCT half full of motorcycles dumped into the Atlantic ocean cheaper to do that than send them home for disposal

email (option): roger.beck@node6.com

Poirot is a Private detective, not an Inspector.

logic, reason and method please.


and please to use the leetle grey cells.

email (option): deadsheds@yahoo.com