Hello Everyone,

Does anyone happen to know what census number range the 1939 KM20's from Contract C3655 had? would these have been fitted with the Deluxe rear mudguard?
could anyone tell me more about the KM20 model?
i'd like to know what the census number would be for my KM20 which is KM20 3396.
what would the engine number have been for this bike??

Thanks,
Eric

email (option): DODGEWC53@telenet.be

Hi Eric,

I managed to find your BSA in the factory ledgers and it left the factory as a Standard M20, not a DeLuxe. It had matching engine and frame numbers and it left the factory 3-7-1939 and went to the War Office London.

Not sure what the tank number would have been but it probably started with C39 and only 6 numbers in total like C398765.

Henk

email (option): ahum@quicknet.nl

Hello Eric

The BSA Ledgers seen to agree with the handbook in this case, but interestingly it says Standard rather than Delux at the top of the page?

Engine KM20 2396
Frame KM20 3396
Date of Despatch 3/7/39
Customers name War Office London

email (option): robmiller11@yahoo.co.uk

Hello,

Thanks for the fast replies, it's currently not fitted with a Deluxe rear mudguard. It's just that i have seen many KM20's with the Deluxe mudguard in pictures that i started to wonder if it might have been changed. Were these perhaps civillian bikes called into military service?

regards,
Eric

email (option): DODGEWC53@telenet.be

Hi Eric

There were civilian bikes impressed into military service but your frame number was originally attached to a military contract machine.

Early military contract M20s seen to have some Delux some standard and some military components, I read somewhere that the oil tell button was actually a pre war AA contract component.

The big problem with most surviving machines is that they were rebuilt at the end of the war, so the front frame section is the only part you can be sure left the factory as part of your bike.

Rob

email (option): robmiller11@yahoo.co.uk

There is some evidence for working out the tank serial but its pretty weak.

Contract C3655 had two blocks of serials C398435-C398733 and C3914359-C3915660.

If you put them in order which is how it worked later on you get-

C398435. Frame KM20 3001. Engine KM20 2001
C398733. Frame KM20 3299. Engine KM20 2299
C3914359. Frame KM20 3300. Engine KM20 2300
C3915660. Frame KM20 4601. Engine KM20 3601

This keycard entry is the only bit of evidence I can find-



C3914519. Frame KM20 3460. Engine KM20 2460

We firstly have to assume that the Engine number is shown not the frame, but then it does fit into the later group.

So using this system your bike would have-

C3914455. Frame KM20 3396. Engine KM20 2396

But as I say its not definite

Rob

email (option): robmiller11@yahoo.co.uk

Hi again,

thanks for the info, what would the correct color be for a KM20 and where would the censusnumber be painted? on the tank or on the license plate? i've seen quite some variations already.

Thanks,
Eric

email (option): DODGEWC53@telenet.be

It's a bit of an odd one this...According to the BSA frame book, as well as being despatched with engine number 2296 to the War Office in July 1939, the same frame number was used again with engine number 3396 (a deLuxe sent to the High Comissioner for India, London on 23/5/40).

I'd guess the reason for this was that BSA had a batch of unused KM20-stamped engines still on the shelf in 1940 and decided to use them on the India contract....which had to have matching engine and frame numbers. They probably assumed that there was little chance of a frame in the UK or France coming into contact with one sent to India so used the same number again - both are shown in the same line of the frame book.

The odd batch of six-digit numbers was originally linked to the earlier contract C3139 - According to the contract cards, this should have been for 682 machines and the numbers C398052 - C398733 were issued to it. Delivery was made of 383 machines with matching numbers - Engines / frames KM20 1101 - 1484. However, the census numbers presumably remained linked to BSA and so it's reasonable to assume that they were used for the first 299 bikes delivered under C3655.

The situation is further complicated as the Ministry of Supply records show that eight machines under C3655 went to the Admiralty...but which ?

I think that Rob's best guess is the most logical basis to work on but without any visible pattern from the key cards, it is really just a well-informed estimate.

This is the closest that I can come with an archive census number style and is typical / correct for the period.



Strictly speaking, the front number plate blade was still being used for the civilian style number plate up until the outbreak of war but there is a good chance that a machine delivered in July 1939 was still in Chilwell or another depot when war broke out in September. It was only later that this vacant position was briefly used for the census numbers.

Would the India contract be military bikes or civillian ones? Would there be any way of tracking down the history of both bikes?
The bike has some deLuxe parts but it could be like Rob mentioned that it's a Standard fitted with some deLuxe parts at the factory. It does have the 3 1/2 gallon fuel tank which i believe was replaced in 1940 with the 3 gallon tank.
Does there happen to be any Keycard record of the London KM20?
thanks,
Eric

email (option): DODGEWC53@telenet.be

India Contract machines were effectively a military contract but the British had a system whereby the Government of India was responsible for its own security (and the costs !). The equipment purchased would have been used by British units stationed in India and by the Indian army (generally local troops with British officers).

There was no requirement for commonality with War Office equipment and in the case of Nortons, this led to orders with a later pattern engine, 'rubberlite' rear lamps, a different pattern sump guard and generally an air filter (often the cannister beside the rear wheel).

Evidence from the BSA books about specification is sparse but there are photos which suggest something similar.

I know of no way of tracking down anything which went to India.

Just as an aside, your frame would have been of the correct period to have seen service with the BEF in 1940. I have looked in some detail at photographs of in-service and captured material from this period and all the images I can find of M20s show the valanced rear guard (but not the instrument panel tank or valanced front guard which the catalogues suggest were deLuxe features).

My feeling is that all the War Office contract M20s from 1939 - 40 had the valanced rear guard but this did not make them 'deLuxe' models.