I wonder if we could pool some information regarding the changes to wartime vehicle colours.

The story goes that at the beginning of the war the colour was gloss green, at some point around 1939 the colour changed to Khaki Green No.3, the next change was to Brown around 1942 and finally Khaki Green in 1944.

Lucas components often have a date on them and if they are in original paint this could help to clarify some dates.

To start the ball rolling I have a Lucas DU42 in original mid war brown, the Ampmeter is dated 1 44 (January 1944).



Rob

email (option): robmiller11@yahoo.co.uk

"and finally Khaki Green in 1944"

I think you probably meant to say Olive green here Rob

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Errrr yes Rob

email (option): robmiller11@yahoo.co.uk

Rob, not sure if this helps but I painted my 1939 Dunkirk G3WO Matchless with Frank Burberry's Khaki Green No 3. When I came to fit the original tool box which I had decided not to paint it was an exact match . The colour difference was indistinguishable. It's the best match for the prewar Khai Green No 3 I have been able to find. Cheers John

Rob, the evidence from the Norton ledgers (which are often annotated with helpful information relating to the contracts) is that the situation might be even more complicated, (pre-war anyway).

Prior to 1938, WD machines were listed as 'Green' and India Office as 'Khaki'. Photographic evidence shows that the WD bikes were a shinyish Deep Bronze Green and those for India were a dull, sandyish brown (which is the colour originally associated with khaki).

on 26/10/1938, the register is marked "All WD M/Cs Dull Green" so the gloss pre-war colour was discontinued at this date.

On 13/6/1939, the ledger shows "First Khaki Solo WD" which might imply that they had changed to the India colour except that on the next India Office build (17/7/1939), it states "India Matt Brown".

I'm pretty sure that the India colour remained unchanged and only the description altered. They were no longer able to call the colour 'khaki' as the War Office had adopted 'Khaki' (Green No.3) as the name for its new Western Europe greeny brown.

Incidentally, the colour that Mike Starmer arrived at based on the unexposed areas of my 16H match a block of KG No.3 blanco so they seem to have been consistent with the shade.

Jan has some documented WD/CO parts in orginal KG No.3 which suggests that it was still being applied by some factories at least, some time after most sources suggest that SCC No.2 was current.

I'm a little lost on the colours as well.
The BSA Owners Club advised that my 1945 BSA M20 would of been Drab Olive Green, but when I dismantled my bike I had what appeared to be the original paint under the canvas grips, the colour suggests that my bike was gloss green?

email (option): 79Aust@sky.com

Hello Rob,

I have an original WD/CO frame in my Register that has been despatched in early December 1942, and this frame was definitely KG3! I also have a late March 1943 WD/CO in the Register with traces of the original paint inside the brake drums. These traces are SCC2. So Enfield must have switched from KG3 to SSC2 somewhere around late December 1942 - early 1943.

Jan

email (option): wd.register@gmail.com

Hi John, I'm looking forward to trying Franks KG No.3, I gave him the samples to mix the paint from but I still haven't got around to opening my tins yet.

Rik, I suspect pre war colours are beyond the scope of this thread, but hopefully it could narrow down the dates when the 3 main WW2 colours changed.

Mike Starmer has done some great research using original documents but I hoped that we might have a seperate line of enquiry using original NOS dated Lucas parts which bear a date.

So if anyone has a NOS battery carrier, tail lamp, Ampmeter ect please feel free to post it here.

Rob.

email (option): robmiller11@yahoo.co.uk

Thanks Jan, thats the sort of evidence we need.

Rob.

email (option): robmiller11@yahoo.co.uk

What does SSC2 stand for..? I guess it's the brown.

email (option): horror@blueyonder.co.uk

Rob, I'm afraid that I lose interest after 1940....

I mentioned Mike Starmer, not as an arbiter of the dates that the changes were made but as a corroboration of the KG No.3 colour which matches the blanco. How does the colour that you've had mixed compare with period blanco ?

My Ni-Fe CVC was dull bronze green rather than the KG3 of the rest of the bike. My ammeter is dated 11/39 - no paint on it but the headlamp was KG No.3 - no surprises there ! I wonder how widespread it was to have various components which were 'out of period' ?

If a manufacturer had a substantial stock of brake drums that bridged a contract / main colour change, were those parts repainted or fitted ex-stock ?

I'm inclined to think for instance that if CO frames were KG No.3, the basic bike was, but there might have been thousands of green bikes with brown brakes, mightn't there ????

I've yet to identify a date on Lucas head and tail lamps. Is there one hidden ?

SCC 2 is Standard Camouflage Colour No.2 Brown - It's the brown used in the 'middle' war period that some Europeans refer to as 'Canadian' brown because many (most ?) of the liberating Canadian Military pattern vehicles were that colour.

Anecdotal evidence suggest that a large proportion of the Allied vehicles in NW Europe during 1944/5 were this colour as the KG No.3 had been superseded and the British Olive Drab was not in widespread use....but that's what Rob wants to pin down.

Hello Rob, Nice initiative!

My WM20-91369 frame is definitely in it's original brown paint.

Haven't yet asked the exact despatch date over here so if you can find out please let me know.

Regards, Michiel

email (option): m.wijbenga@hotmail.com

Hi Michiel

The Demand card for your contract states Delivery should start in May 1943 at 2,000 machines per month, your bike is 9,552 of a 15,000 contract which would make its delivery around October/November 1943? but its possible that BSA finished the contract early which could bring it back a month or so, probably.

Rob

email (option): robmiller11@yahoo.co.uk

My 16H contract C11082 was brown under the hand painted green, but the primer under that was grey. Was gey primer every used originally or was it always red oxide paint?

email (option): horror@blueyonder.co.uk

JOB has an original Headlamp in late war Olive Green, the CZ27 Ampmeter is dated 1 45 (January 1945).

So we know Lucas changed from Brown to Green sometime between 1 44 & 1 45.

Can anyone narrow it down a bit more.

Rob

email (option): robmiller11@yahoo.co.uk

Hi Rob,

This one won't help you very much, but I'll show it anyway... It's a mid December 1944 Royal Enfield WD/CO petrol tank, in Olive Drab:



Cheers,
Jan

email (option): wd.register@gmail.com

Rob, Have an original paint tank for a Matchless G3L, Contract S1050 from 1-10-1942 almost the last bike from the contract, that is SCC 2, but has a very thin layer of Khaki green over it, not sure if factory applied or later in war?



Will check if it was painted after C number was applied.

Anything on the change over from Gloss Deep Bronze green to Matt Deep Bronze green in 1939???

Lex

email (option): welbike@welbike.net