I am currently assembling a motorcyclists battledress blouse and could use a bit of expert guidance. It is intended as a motorcyclist of the 1st RTR, early war in North Africa. My questions are as follows: 1) Should the RTR shoulder titles be brass or the cloth type, 2) should the arm of service stripes be solid red or yellow/red, and 3) should the motorcyclists MC trade badge be on the lower arm of the right or left sleeve. I have searched on the net high and low for definitive answers, but to no avail. Though I know there was wartime deviation from standards, I'd be happy to learn what was the most usual arrangement of insignia.



Thanks much!

Mark

email (option): wingco40@hotmail.com

Hi Mark

I have my G3L in the 7th Armoured (2RTR).My battledress has the Jerboa and RAC insignia as per your photo on both sleeves, below this only the right sleeve is the 'Tank' badge, on the left lower is the 'MC' despatch rider badge.Hope this helps.

Pete

email (option): cruaser@aol.com

As per what Pete has already said and with cloth RTR slip-on titles on the shoulder, not brass. Great to see another Tankie. I wanted to do my bike up as RTR, but found it has been in the RASC, so couldn't bring myself to pretend it was something it wasn't. I've found the Battledress to be very draughty when riding, even on a nice day, so you'd do well to invest in a repro blue flannel shirt and leather Jerkin too!

These 'MEN AT ARMS' series from Osprey books are useful. Lots of text with original pictures and lovely colour plates. Ron.

http://www.ospreypublishing.com/men_at_arms/

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Mark Again nice to see a Tanki badged up, but to be frank I dont put up decorations (ie medal ribbon)I havent been awarded,And most people giving an "impression ", dont normally Do so , those that are entitled to wear them and who are on the scene might. I do wear my dads on armistic day but wear his on my right breast as a tribute, to his bravery, of course film work may be an execption.but thats all fantasy isnt it andrew.h.

email (option): warbikes@gmail.com

Medals are a bit of a mine field if you ask me, but then again, so is the whole dressing up in uniform thing if you think about it? I can't see that it's ever right to wear a Gallantry Medal or ribbon that you aren't entitled to, or even a wound badge for that matter? but if you are a 40 year old bloke re-enacting being a career soldier in 1942, would it be acceptable to wear an Africa Star or pre-war General Service medal ribbon? Actually, many of us are far too old, too fat or too unfit for WW2 active service, so should we pack it in? If you take it to it's ultimate conclusion, if you weren't in the RTR, you shouldn't be wearing the uniform? Those men worked hard and often risked life and limb to get their badges to show they were Airborne, Tanks, Submariners or whatever, so, as with the medal ribbons, is it right that we just buy a replica and slap it on? It's up to the individual I suppose, but my opinion is that we are here to keep the memory alive and educate folks, whilst having a damn good time riding old bikes into the bargain. A big part of this is wearing the correct kit and as long as we respect the regiment and the uniform and do our best to make sure everything is as right as we can make it, we probably won't go far wrong?

If you are re-enacting a wartime Squaddie, the medals were mainly issued after the war. I suppose you could wear Waziristan, NW Frontier and WW1 medal ribbons Etc. I agree that gallantry medals should not be worn unless, as stated above, they belonged to a parent and worn on Armistice day in memorium.

Wasn't there a case in the news recently of a bloke who was caught wearing all sorts of WW2 medals at an Armistice Parade, including Gallantry Medals that he wasn't entitled to? It's a bit different, I know, as he was actually claiming they were his?

I agree with Ron by the way, the Osprey books are usually brilliant for this sort of thing, lots of great photos and artists impressions in colour.

Just be a private with no medals you wont go far wrong .I think it is more important to have the CORRECT uniform.When we where on the 65 for 65 run there was a load of idiots in a ww 2 us army lorry one had a shirt that said same s--t different day to me on a d day run that is bad.A ww2 uniform by the way is not a load of camo gear.

email (option): cooperbaumber@yahoo.com

Agreed on the medals issue. The photo included in my post is not my collection or battledress, and I wouldn't be caught dead wearing anything with medals attached! Just bad form.

Thanks everyone for your thoughts! And Pete and Bill, your recommendations were just what I was hoping to find!! Thank much!

Mark

email (option): wingco40@hotmail.com

I agree it is not right to wear other peoples gallantry awards..apart from the appropriate wearing of a relatives medals. (in fact I think it's illegal)
Rank is also another issue that generates some friction.. I don't see a problem with this. Rank was frequently awarded not as a result of any individual act of bravery but simply because they needed more people of a given rank....For instance, if all the Sergeants in a unit were killed they would make some Corporals up to that rank....
For those who say it's ok to wear uniform but not to wear rank it should be remembered a private is a rank as well, so that isn't a logical position from which to argue. An arguement based on the principle of 'entitlement', or lack of it, is also an entirely spurious one, as there is no 'official' position taken by the Government or the Military on that subject.
Personally I wear uniform to 'set the bike off' at particular events and simply regard it as more appropriate in the context of the bike and the event than modern riding gear.
I've yet to have a complaint or negative comment from a Veteran either, the people that really matter....Quite the reverse in fact..In Arromanches one D Day which was full of 'French Americans' a Veteran said to me 'At last, the Brits have arrived!'..That's good enough for me!..Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Hear is another talking point i am led to believe that only the royal signals can be called dispatch riders

last year i sold all my KD gear shirt shorts and 1937 pattern webbing still got webley revolver and a couple of webbing buckle for shoulder strap i got fed up being slagged off at shows for the KD kit not being exact and the bike not being right i am not a rivet counter

email (option): roger.beck@node6.com

That is a bit of a problem, there will always be those who take perverted pleasure in saying something picky like, 'look, he's wearing post war boot-laces' but as Ian says, the veterans and those who appreciate the whole re-enactment scene are the ones that matter, not the rivet counters. My wife and I were actually applauded by a group of WW2 veterans as we walked along through a local show, very embarrassing, but also very gratifying and it just goes to show that they don't mind us dressing up and preserving their memory.

Agreed Ian. For the military bikes, it is only appropriate that the rider fit the part and highlight the whole affair. Another important and very gratifying point is the preservation and honoring of the history. Many years back I was attending an historical event, and was asked to attend in British kit. At the time I was perhaps thirty-eight and was attired in walking-out kit of the 1st Airborne Reconnaissance Squadron, maroon beret, recce badge and all. During the event a very nice man in his early forties approached me and shared a most moving statement. He was at the event with his aging mother. His mother had seen me in kit and was very deeply moved. She had asked her son to come and thank me for being in the uniform, as the last time she had seen the uniform was when her husband was so attired and walking out the front door of their house to parachute into Arnhem!

Best

Mark

email (option): wingco40@hotmail.com

This side of the pond (Canada) our WW2 group does not permit medals being worn that are not earned, with our battledress uniforms. Rank assignment is based on the size of our group and need for specific rank structure, one of our members is proud to say he's the oldest Private in the Canadian Army! (He's well into his 60's).
Surprising how many know-it-alls say this or that isn't right, and the veterans will often come up to us on displays and tell us how well they remember certain items (when in some cases, our guys know it wasn't period correct in WW2!)
The basic point is we are respectful of our veterans and portray them in an honorable fashion.

Really good points made in this post, I have no connection to the military and as yet have no battledress, but have thought it would be nice to take part in some of the events and do the bike, as well as the group justice, by re-inacting the full effect with uniform in order to portray it's history.
I haven't got a clue what or where to buy the uniform, but I would feel embarrassed to be wearing any regimental medal that I would have no idea how it was truely earned, or could ever appreciate the sacrifice the original owner took to gain that reward.
As has been said in other posts, we probably never will be the true owners of our M20's, but we are the current custodians. Therefore give the bike and all it's previous custodians the respect it/they deserve by modelling it accordingly, in order to keep the memory alive as a tribute and honour.
I feel it's still right to wear the uniform to re-inact the era as these bikes were built with the purpose of war. I guess nobody would of ever given a thought of what happens to them after the war, but it's a tribute to their engineering skill that they have lasted this long with our assitance.

email (option): 79Aust@sky.com

I don't want to rake all this business up again about if it's right to wear rank we are not entitled to, but just thought I'd share this with you. I'm currently reading a WW1 memoir called 'The Daredevil of the Army' by Austin Patrick Corcoran. It's a terrific read and at one point he says that messages were always sent from officer to officer and consequently, all Motorcycle Despatch Riders had at least the rank of Corporal as it was against army regulations for any soldier below this rank (i.e. Private) to speak to an officer without permission. I'm not sure if this ruling was still in place for WW2, but if it was still the case and we are trying to be historically accurate, shouldn't we all have at least two stripes up?

Hi,here's an article about wearing un earned medals
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/coventry_warwickshire/8454415.stm
cheers Rick

email (option): richardholt@rocketmail.com

Back to the original post......! BD worn in North Africa around 1941-42 was the original pre-war type with all-concealed buttons..........it was generally worn in cooler weather and at night......

Insignia worn varied, but the earlier war period saw fewer insignia worn than perhaps later in the war.......

Around 1941 the regulation titles worn would have been the slip-on "RTR" titles in black on khaki drab....although if these weren't available many individuals chose to wear the earlier "RTR" tiles in brass from the serge service dress jacket..........worth remembering though that the RTC became the RTR as late as 1939 so more than a few individuals were in possession of, and probably wore the earlier "RTC" brass titles.....there was a war on after all......

The red-yellow arm-of-service strip for RAC formations was introduced during 1940, and this embraced the RTR too........so some wore this, others simply didn't bother sewing it on........

Formation signs at this point were rather less common, and supply was often a problem, thus some insignia was locally made........

The RTR "tank" sleeve badge (on the upper right arm) was invariably worn however, this distinction having been awarded well prior to WW2.......also often worn, at the expense of the RTR/RTC slip-on titles were the coloured eppaulette slip-ons ("flashes") in the relevant RTR battalion colours......

I would say the most accurate representation for 1941 North Africa would be coloured shoulder flashes, tank sleeve badge, possibly the yellow/red AOS strip, and rank..........forget the formation flash and ribbons.......

The "DR" or "MC" winged sleeve patch was NOT an official WD issue insignia, and was always privately purchased from the numerous service outfitters of the period......some bothered to acquire one, others didn't, and whether or not you could get away wearing it very much depended on your unit, CO, and perhaps more importantly your RSM.....!

Medals...? I have around 4 (I think) from 30 years Forces and Police service....but haven't any inclination to wear them and they are more than happy keeping my socks company in the drawer........still in the boxes they were issued in.......

email (option): sjmwdbikemad@aol.co.uk

Fully agree Bill ! A No-No.......I'm just trying not to go off topic !!!

email (option): sjmwdbikemad@aol.co.uk

My old man and his bren gun crew North Africa and Italy.

Not a lot of battle dress to be seen.
as for wearing medals? he has oak leaves on his, for action at Anzio and they are still in the packet they were sent to him in.

medals? he'd say, f***'em all, let alone wear them

My Uncle George was a medic with the Paras out in India and Burma for much of the war and came back in 1948. He and all his mates threw their medals off the back of the boat as soon as they'd cleared the harbour. Most of them probably felt the same way Ken?

Thats one reason I view so much of this attention to detail that never was a bit amusing.

each to their own, but I grew up with men who were there, sometimes they'd talk, most times they wouldn't.
My old feller had about three yarns he'd tell, no more. If only he had, but like a lot of blokes who came back he was a changed man.

I have learnt more about his war service from a son of one of his unit, who his researching his own fathers service life for the same reason, than I ever did from the old feller, which is where most of those pics are from.

There is in existance, at least until my brother can find it, a photo of 6 blokes; on the back he had written.
"this is all thats left of the 60 that landed"

I doubt minor details about kit bothered him as he retrieved his burning Bren carrier under artillery fire at Anzio, that was near the infamous flyover for those that know their history.

and before it kicks off I am not knocking anyones wearing of the kit, just that its only like that in fillums.

Nowhere in period photos have I seen an army motorcyclist carrying a .303 or a sten as standard issue, DR's were issued with side arms only.

any soldier out there wearing medals in the desert,well I shudder to think of the reception he'd have had.

I once remember at a family wedding the father of the bride showing us kids his case of medals,

"they all yours"said the old man

"oh no Jack I collect them"

"garn, bugger me, I had to fight for mine"

RIP Private CJ Bryant. Middx Regt, the "Die Hards". Alamein to Italy and Palestine 1942-46

miserable old sod sometimes.

There can't be many things more uncomfortable than falling off a motorcycle and sliding along on a Sten gun!

depends which way its pointing!!

There are plenty of period photos showing riders with sten guns and rifles, although most of the rifle pics seem to date from earlier in the war. Probably before too many of them had tied them round their necks falling off!

It seems to me the views expressed here are all at 'sixes and sevens' and at the very least inconsistent.....
With bikes, endless discussions go on regarding specifications to try and tie down what was correct originally...
Then people say they are going to keep their bike in its current battered and non standard condition to preserve its 'patina' and don't seek to return it to that specification...and will criticise anyone who does...
Conversely those that have tried to make their bike as 'correct' as they can in their view will take the same position regarding 'patina'..

Equally books are written (and people buy them)on the specifications and details of Army uniforms...
However, to actually present one like that runs the gauntlet of being criticised because 'they weren't worn like that in practice'....yet conversely, if it's not all correct you can be accused of being careless or 'slovenly' in your turnout...

In this world of opposing opinions, neither of which is more 'correct' than the other maybe we should just accept the person who holds the opposite view and respect his right to choose without being so critical...and hopefully he might do the same....Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Too true Ian, couldn't agree more.

You should work for the United Nations.

I agree with ians sentiments..i was in volved in mg cars for years and after a letter in the mg mag asking if there were any rallies for 'tatty', daily use cars as most seen by the writer at shows were very pretty, i replied that it was more important that we were keeping these vehicles going than whether they were spot on etc and just get out and enjoy owning and driving it.

I think the same should apply here, we should just be thankful that we are the present custodian of a piece of motoring and military history. The fact that some people want the patina of old age, or that some want the ( and have the skills ) to produce a pristine example is irrelevant.

As for dressing the part, that is also an individual thing, personally if i am showing the bike in a military section then i will dress the part, if showing in a motorcycle section then i prob wont. But thats just me...i would never knock anyone anyone for dressing up or otherwise.

On the subject of medals and rank badges then i do have some strong views, in that no-one should ever wear any medal which has not been awarded to themselves, except when wearing a relatives on the other breast as a mark of respect. Rank badges are a diff matter, some shows will not you let them unless you are entitled to, this can be limiting as when depicting certain things it would be wrong without the rank involved.

To sum up.....lets enjoy ours and others bikes regardless of their condition,and if someone wants to dress the part dont knock them if its not technically correct but applaud them for making an effort.

Rant over Chris

email (option): chris@mgowner.co.uk

Ok no problem with that, but if we are going for detail lets start at the top, short back and sides, no ponytails, no beards moustaches, or earrings.
No beer Guts, Woodbines not rollups, and lets see the hobnails on the boots correct......

... and stand up straight at the back there.

email (option): deadsheds@yahoo.com

I think the above debate has pretty much covered all points........

When we go to an event, we either dress up to compliment the bike, or don't, depending on the venue........

But if you've spent so much effort getting the bike correct to period spec, it can be a shame to lower the effort on the period dress if that's what you are aiming for.......

But therein lies the wider issue........first point should be to study the numerous wartime pics of bikes and riders and look at what's being worn......and thereafter consider your attire........

The "classic" DR outfit of boots, breeches and tin-crash hat didn't become universally available until '41-42.........and as numerous photos evidence, many riders seemed to wear what was available, practical and comfortable in contradiction of the published reg's regarding motorcycle dress.......

As long as your kit is a reasonable capture of period attire, even if not entirely meeting the dress reg's, you may actually be presenting a closer impression to the reality than the popular image today......:o)

email (option): sjmwdbikemad@aol.co.uk

Few people are actually completely open minded when it comes to what others do and we have all at some time considered what is OK and what isn't from our own point of view and where we 'draw the line'...

I tend to judge the result from the intention...
In other words if your going to rebuild a military bike in military spec. at least seek to satisfy that aspiration by making it reasonably correct....Otherwise what's the point exactly?....
Saying that if you fit modern wiring for example, it doesn't really distract from the overall impression so does it really matter too much?...

Likewise with uniform...If your intention is to look pretty much like a WW2 motorcyclist then by definition you should get at least the major parts of the kit correct I would have thought...If you don't do that then you haven't really succeeded have you?....

Absolute historical accuracy in either case is the preserve of Living History groups or rivet counters and concourse fanatics...
Personally I only seek to create an impression that has sufficient accuracy to satisfy the average observer and within those limits do my best to make a reasonable job of it.....Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

I tend to agree with your view. I am just a bystander to the WD M20 scene, but using the info to help keep my M33 going. I see these WD bikes at shows as does members of my branch of the BSAOC and are of the opinion that if it looks right weather the bike or uniform then that's ok, not every one is a rivet counter in the onlooker.My penny worth.

Best bit of authentic kit for a WD bike is a period tank suit.
covers up everything.

not waterproof but in the cold absolutely ace, and so warm. dozens of useful pockets too, and bits that undo so you can have a pee, so necessary for the older rider.

Mine was almost waterproof owing to years of grease and oil on it from the older bike rider I inherited it from.
If ever you get a good one do not do what I did and get it dry cleaned, it ruins the inner rubber lining.

email (option): deadsheds@yahoo.com

Best bit of authentic kit for a WD bike is a period tank suit.
covers up everything.

not waterproof but in the cold absolutely ace, and so warm. dozens of useful pockets too, and bits that undo so you can have a pee, so necessary for the older rider.

Mine was almost waterproof owing to years of grease and oil on it from the older bike rider I inherited it from.
If ever you get a good one do not do what I did and get it dry cleaned, it ruins the inner rubber lining.

email (option): deadsheds@yahoo.com

I never said it was writ in stone......

show us them then?

besides my old man had a Vickers and a bren carrier to carry the bike on.
see above.

His Gunner, Darkie, used to play jazz tunes when firing the thing, you can't do that with a sten gun.

email (option): deadsheds@yahoo.com

A couple of points spring to mind. One is that the Canadians were a law unto themselves so we need to be clear if we're discussing British or Commonwealth.

The term 'Despatch Rider' as a trade is Royal Signals only and they were normally issued with sidearms.

It could be argued that any soldier carrying a despatch on a motorcycle becomes a 'despatch rider' for the duration of the trip but his position in the unit would be that of 'motorcyclist'. These men could have carried whatever weapon they normally used.

It was fairly common from 1944 onwards for the Corps of Military Police to carry Sten guns and they were extensive users of motorcycles.

Right, the photos are uniquely of Canadian motorcyclists, Two photos are of RCCS dispatch riders the other is a motorcyclist of the Essex Regiment. And yes Canadians were a breed apart ( I had to install a Vokes filter to keep myself from sitting on the gas tank while I ride)and may not have had the same issue weaponry the British did. This would explain lack of photographic evidence of British DR's using Stens. As for the term Dispatch Rider, yes it seems to be used for anyone riding a motorcycle. Dispatch Rider was a trade in the RCS or RCCS. The Winged Wheel patch was the Trade badge of the RCS and is as proper to that unit as jump wings are to the airborne. All other motorcycle riders were motorcyclists and would have had an MC trade badge. As you say, a motorcyclist could very well run dispatches, but to be a DR, you needed to be in Sigs.

Really interesting thread, this - nice to hear all the views - which are all valid and I thoroughly agree with the "whatever floats your boat" approach, providing you are not likely to cause offence........or (as no-one has yet mentioned) be overly unsafely attired while riding. "NOBS" sets strict rules for its "members", starting with, "There ain't no rules" and "Never Look Back", but by agreement while riding we dress "sympathetically" which covers a multitude of sins but has the general aim of allowing the Public to see the bikes in reasonable context - ie not ridden by a day-glo clad bloke/woman wearing a full-face modern helmet. This allows the group individuals to make their own decisions about what to wear according to the event and the weather, including choices on safety gear - some go for full WW2 kit and others just for the drab look with modern open helmet in muted colours. Touching on the safety issue, the first brush I had with the Law was at the recent War & Peace Revival show rideout, where a m/c cop apparently got upset with the helmets beaing worn. Thankfully, he was fended off by the redoubtable Ginger so we never got taken to task and I suspect the real issue was that some riders were wearing standard tin hats rather than m/c ones. However, I am not exactly sure how we stand in terms of the Law and safety of our para' style lids with their flimsy, thin leather chin strap and I trust I will never have to find out! I know a lot of folk tend to think that what I wear is my business, but I tend to be of the school that thinks we have a responsibility for ensuring that we are not a potential burden on our NHS by wearing the military version of shorts and tea shirt..........which I think does need some compromise on a) riding speed and style and b) some concessions on clothing authenticity, especially in the wet. In other words, common sense kicks in.

I am sure that as long as you acknowledge the source, and its for non profit and educational use, ie sharing of knowledge, such as is done here, copyright is not applicable here.

Same applies to text or picture.

Plus the copyright belongs to the source of the pic, so if the book is illustrated with photos from say, The IWM, its their copyright.

As an author myself, but in a different field I often use photos on my website from outside sources, always acknpwledge the source, never had a problem.

copyright on text here is for 75yrs after death of author, not the shorter term as applies in the US, can't say for Canada.

As for sitting on the tank, I am in process of sorting through some old mags for stuff to put on here, I have some photos of Canadian troops sitting on large lumps of sorbo rubber on the tank.
also with giant windscreens made of perspex from glider windscreens.

that would be late 1944 on.

email (option): deadsheds@yahoo.com

Ken, here are a couple that might be of interest -





These are from Henks CD - highly recommended BTW.

email (option): rays54@hotmail.com

If you've got your August 2013 issue of 'Windscreen' from the MVT, have a look at the top of page 45. It's a lovely bike and I'm not judging or making comment, just thought I'd point it out as its relevant to the conversation.

Out of curiosity, what's the general consensus regarding wearing a properly holstered Webley side arm (resin facsimile) at military vehicle events, WD motorbike events, etc. in the UK and Europe? As you are most likely aware, here in the US we strap on our guns when we hop on the bicycle to go down the road for coffee!

I'm not sure on what the 'consensus' is, or even if there is one, on that subject. My slant on the UK is that if you are doing a full portrayal at a Living History closed site event then it is fine. At an 'open site' i.e. a 40's village event then it is questionable as it falls in to carrying it in a public place. Albeit covered, but it is dodgy ground. I always leave mine at home in this situation. At a 'bike' event where the garb was being worn just to add a bit of period effect (nothing wrong imho) then a weapon is begging for trouble as carrying an imitation firearm in a public place is an offence. Wearing it just riding around - see the previous, and expect to get shot by a firearms officer if he has grounds to fear it is real and a danger. Face it, a bloke was shot dead for only having a broken chair leg in a plastic carrier bag, - not worth the risk. Abroad, I don't know the rules as applied to foreigners. So I have always left mine at home. But obviously there are plenty of replicas, blank firers, live firers, deacts. etc taken to events in Normandy and so on so there must be provision for it.

British police are twitchy and nervous where guns are concerned.
any thing that looks like a gun, smells like a gun, or can be construed as even looking like one can get you shot, no messing.

whether or not this is a good thing is debatable, endlessly.

Times have changed, when i was at school playing cowboys and indians there were always a couple of souvenirs for the lucky lads, usaully with a lump of lead melted down the barrel. I once had a lovely Luger found in a coal cellar, the barrel was stuffed with wax crayons, lovely clean bore.
Used to be all sorts of stuff around then.... best was a machine gun recovered from a Spitfire wreck off Sheppey for 25 quid... which was more than a weeks wage then.

Either of which now would get me a lengthy holiday in one of HM prison or a hole in the chest.

email (option): deadsheds@yahoo.com

British police are twitchy and nervous where guns are concerned.
any thing that looks like a gun, smells like a gun, or can be construed as even looking like one can get you shot, no messing.

whether or not this is a good thing is debatable, endlessly.

Times have changed, when i was at school playing cowboys and indians there were always a couple of souvenirs for the lucky lads, usaully with a lump of lead melted down the barrel. I once had a lovely Luger found in a coal cellar, the barrel was stuffed with wax crayons, lovely clean bore.
Used to be all sorts of stuff around then.... best was a machine gun recovered from a Spitfire wreck off Sheppey for 25 quid... which was more than a weeks wage then.

Either of which now would get me a lengthy holiday in one of HM prison or a hole in the chest.

email (option): deadsheds@yahoo.com

Not recommended to carry one in Normandy in my opinion...I saw some French Alpine troops arresting someone with one on the 60th. and the Gendarmerie have an unpredictable attitude as well...
As far as the upcoming Normandy tour in 2014 is concerned the rules say 'No Weapons'...It isn't worth the hassle....Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

In theory, if you are part of a recognised event and you have the deactivation certificate to match the firearm you are displaying, there should be no problem, but as has been previously stated, it's no good waving a deact certificate in the air when you've got a Police quick response Firearms officer pointing a Heckler and Koch at your forehead. The Police do, quite understandably, tend to 'defuse a situation' first and ask questions later.

Sod it! I'll take the risk. Here are the three motorcyclists with Stens that Sam mentioned. Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

What do you reckon is the piece of webbing(?) hanging down near to the carb, I can't make it out.

And what is it with the riding on the tank? I've seen references to it before, and some recently on here, was it just a bit of 'individuality' or did they believe it gave some advantage? I suppose this should be another thread

The rider has undone his belt for some more comfort and his left side Bren mag pouch and belt are hanging down. Probably another one the other side.
I can only think that the Canadian idea of riding on the tank is the nearest position to riding a Harley Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Interesting pics that I not seen before, although that sten pointing up like that would be worrying; probably posed pics like a lot of wartime photography but none the less valuable for that.

The Canadians had a habit of riding on a bit of sorbo rubber at the back of the tank; something to do with "being in the middle of the bump" I have some period magazine stuff about it, but you'll have to wait.

I forget the whole debate until I can dig it out but as far as I can remember they adopted the habit when they gave up their Indians for the G3L, the Indians had much better saddle springing and they dont seem to have been taught to ride rigid frame bike "on the stirrups" .

They also were quick to improvise sensible weather protection such as windscreens, muffs and lap covers.
But as was said earlier, they were a law unto themselves in these matters.

email (option): deadsheds@yahoo.com

A friend of mine who was in the RCEME took his motorcycle course in Germany in the 60's on a TRW. He said he was taught to ride on the tank by his instructors and that they justified it by saying the further forward you are the further away you are from the bucking action of the rear end of the bike. Leads to believe that new recruits were indoctrinated
in this practice by their instructors. Seems to make sense as it was fairly widespread but also frowned upon by higher up. Personally I don't get it, I tried it and found it to be awkward and uncomfortable.