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My front wheel saga

I've been longing to get our last run of the year over with so that I can address the problem of my wheel wobble that occurs at approaching 60mph.
So with the aid of 'Ariel Graham' acting as SIC, we have been doing some serious checking. The wheel is set over to right side of the forks by 1/2", but as we know the forks are offset to allow for the speedo drive.

Photobucket

But we found that by jigging the bike by various means and measuring from different points along with sighting up, that the wheel is dead in the centre of the frame.

Photobucket

Also when I checked my wheel offset against the spec in the M20 standards book, it is exactly the same.

Photobucket


So now we come the the forks and headstock bearings! I fitted NOS spindles and had new bushes fitted and line reamed about 1000 miles ago. There is no wear or play to these.
But I have never been happy with the adjustment to my headstock bearings since I fitted them a few years ago. There was always a tight spot with the handle moved to the left which was only eliminated by leaving the bearings a bit slacker than I wanted. So I'm waiting for one of Ian's headstock bearing kits.
However what I did notice is that whist removing the old bearing cups with one of Robb Nortier's tools, I had to use a Tommy bar with great effort to screw the tool in enough. But once the cups were knocked out, the tool became quite loose in the threads, therefore indicating a severe amount of distortion occurring during fitting.

As far as my wobble is concerned! I'm sure it's just a combination of a worn tyre and an out of balance wheel that has a slight run out at one point.....All of which I will address soon. Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Re: My front wheel saga

I think it is unlikely tyres are the issue here unless you have an 'oddball'. I have run with all sorts from ribbed Speedmasters, Speedway tyres, K70s, 4.00 SMs etc. etc. and like most Brit bikes the M20 is very tolerant to tyre changes, high/low pressures etc...Personally, I've never had any balanced either and not had 'wobble' problems.
If you think the old races were being distorted then you need to check the frame cups for damage and distortion (not round), otherwise you will do exactly the same thing to the new bearings.
A check through the back end for problems may also be a good idea to ensure you haven't got a case of the 'tail wagging the dog'...Ian

Re: My front wheel saga

Yep I wondered about the frame cups, I'll see how accurately I can check them. Both were the same though. I'll be taking the back wheel out also, but don't really want to strip the whole bike, which is probably the only way to check frame alignment properly. The Tyre fitted is about a 20 year old Chen Shing that has started to feather on one side. So I'll be getting a K70 fitted at Beaulieu and might as well let them balance it at the same time. I'll also see if my wheel builder can true it up a bit first. Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Re: My front wheel saga

Good work Ron!

The "Standards" rim offset data for rear wheel is a little unclear

For rear left/brake/sprocket side, the straight edge should be placed on the end face of the 15-7046 Hub bearing sleeve/hollow axle (5/8" to edge of rim).

For rear right side, the straight edge should be placed on the end face of the 26-6861 Hub bearing locknut (1 1/4" to edge of rim).

The front wheel data is straight forward and your offset dimension of 1/2" tallies nicely with the 1940-1948 66-5526 Front Hub Spindle (axle) which has an overall length of 7.570” /192.2mm, for offset wheel and fork)

Whereas the 1937-1939 15-7018 Front Hub Spindle (axle) has an overall length of 7.086” /180mm, for non-offset wheel and non-offset fork.

The extra length of 40-48 spindle is all on the left side for:
29-5737 Speedometer Drive Gearbox,(body of drive around axle hole is 0.105” thick)
2 x 36-3528 Front Hub Spindle Locknut Washer (fitted on top of speedo drive, 0.640” x 1.250” x 0.125” thick, same washer as idler spindle in timing chest)
66-5524, Front Hub Washer (Speedometer Drive) (goes inside speedo drive, 0.640” x 0.950” x 0.078” thick)
24-6994, Front Hub Spindle Locknut, (left side, goes on top of 36-3528, 5/8” x 20 TPI x 0.920” hex x 0.188 thick, not used 37-39)

All these 40-48 bits add up to 0.621", however, contrary to at least some BSA parts books, RUSSELL MOTORS state that only one 36-3528 Front Hub Spindle Locknut Washer is used, which brings the stack of bits down to 4 thou shy of 1/2", near as damn it!

Perhaps BSA intended 36-3528 Front Hub Spindle Locknut Washer to be used "as required", so as not to overstress the "war tolerance" fork when axle nuts tightened?

The answers lie in the uncounted rivets!

Good luck with eliminating your wobble, I've never experienced a BSA wobble.

You might have to do some hand scraping so your head bearings remain round.


email (option): n.gentner@bigpond.com

Re: My front wheel saga

I have just spent 20 minutes measuring my frame and bearing cups, all be it with a vernier. I can't find any ovality in anything...thank God!
The bearing cups are slightly bigger in diameter of course and it could be this interference fit that causes the tool to bulk. It has just occurred to me that the tight spot in my steering to the left could just be my headlamp wiring loom?
Anyway I'm going to fit the up rated bearing kit and attend to the other issues mentioned as a matter of course.
It is frustrating when other mates wheel out their bike and ride like the wind with no problems. He wont mind me saying! But I have just Helped Graham (Of Graham and Louise) with getting his forks re-bushed. His bushes and headstock bearings were quite bad, and yet his bike didn't waver at all, even with Lou as pillion. Ron

Ah Neale we posted together. I don't no why Photobucket has cut off part of the standards book info. I deleted it and tried again but it's still cut off

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Re: My front wheel saga

Hi Ron,

Just a thought but did you check the forks in the other direction? along the front-rear of the machine.

If the forks are distorted in that direction it will affect the 'rake and trail' of the bike which could cause your wobble.

Maybe you could make some measurements from the frontwheel spindle to the bottom of the frontframe and compare that with another M20. With the forks in the same position/deflection of course.

In my case the frontframe of the bike was bended just below the steeringhead which will, of course, also affect the steering and I bended it back with a hydraulic jack and checked the total wheelbase with my other M20.

Photobucket

Good luck with it, Michiel

email (option): m.wijbenga@hotmail.com

Re: My front wheel saga

Thanks for your comments Michiel. I'm doing all the checks I can.

Cheers Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Re: My front wheel saga

Hi Ron,

Is it possible there is something aft of the engine that is causing this?
Is the rear frame section aligned properly? I made a gage to set mine up using an arrow as a center-line, and machinists squares to see which way it was out.

I'm doing the same thing with my 41 Matchy.

I'd be happy to send you drawings of the gage and instructions on use.

Cheers

email (option): britool51@hotmail.com

Re: My front wheel saga

Please do send the information Robb. Although this wobble only seems to have started since I did the front end about 1000 miles ago. Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Re: My front wheel saga

The latest update and time to fess up on a cardinal cock up!! I received the up graded headstock bearings from Ian today. They tapped into the frame without any difficulty. I then tapped the steering stem in place only to find a severe roughness on turning it from side to side. Then the penny dropped. The front tank bolts were rubbing on the steering stem. Which is a mistake that I'm well aware of and yet it slipped past my scrutiny on the last fork rebuild. I can only assume that the strange cup and top hat buffers have squeezed up a bit allowing the bolts to just hit the stem. None the less I am chuffed to have found this culprit of notchy steering.
For reference. No shimming was required to the new lower bearing but I did add a thin shim at the top to keep the dust cover from touching.

Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Re: My front wheel saga

Hi Ron...OOPS! ...I did that once but the bolts were exerting a reasonable amount of pressure so it was pretty much impossible to go in a straight line and it had to be addressed immediately....Yours must have been pinching the stem a little less...Easily done though. Thanks for the feedback on fitting up the bearings...Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Re: My front wheel saga

Ian can you let me know what I owe you.

Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Re: My front wheel saga

Hi Ron,

Am I reading you correctly that the tank bolts screw in so deeply that they actually hit the steering stem?

email (option): unpob@yahoo.com

Re: My front wheel saga

Yes Henri. I'm certainly not the first that it has happened to. They are the same bolts that have been there for years. They are 15/16" long and I think that I must have compressed the tank buffers just enough to touch the steering stem. Have now played safe with 3/4" bolts. It's a warning to others. Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Re: My front wheel saga

M413/1, Petrol tank fixing bolt, (2)(front, 5/16 x 26tpi C.E.I. x 23/32” long 0.71875” or 18.25mm)
3/4" is ok

You must also use:

27-8447/1, Petrol tank support sleeve (2)(top hat).
27-8448, Petrol tank front support rubber (2).
27-8449/1, Petrol tank front support buffer cup (2).

I have made and fitted new stems due to wrong bolts severely cutting into stem, no idea how the bikes were ridden, probably very badly by the same complete morons who later claimed all M20's were rubbish.

email (option): n.gentner@bigpond.com

Re: My front wheel saga

When I think of all of the Egyptian bikes that were driven without the buffers and other accoutrements...never thought to verify wear on the stem. Oh well, another job for warmer days.

email (option): unpob@yahoo.com

Re: My front wheel saga

Thanks for the concise posting of parts and bolt length Neale. I have all the correct buffer parts, although I imagine the amount of insulation they give is very minimal. Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Re: My front wheel saga

Hi Ron, when we were measuring different distances between spindles on your M20 there was a difference in the measurements from the spindle going through the bottom fork yoke and the wheel spindle, on each side. It looked to me as if the bottom yoke spindle wasn't parallel with the spindles going through the forks. I think there was 1/4" difference.

email (option): horror@blueyonder.co.uk

Re: My front wheel saga

Nah Dave! I think that might have been more to do with the way the bike was sitting on the uneven floor in my museum....Plus one of us had been drinking .
With the bike set square on the bench. everything measures equal.Since I have just assemble the forks with Ian's new headstock bearings I just did another check from bottom yolk spindle to wheel spindle which is 19 1/4" both sides. Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Re: My front wheel saga

Ah good, it was probably my eyesight that was wonky Hopefully the problem's solved now

email (option): horror@blueyonder.co.uk

Re: My front wheel saga

Ron Pier
I just did another check from bottom yolk spindle to wheel spindle which is 19 1/4" both sides. Ron


Ron,
Please confirm your fork length (not your inside leg

I get:

Short fork 420mm (16.5” by tape measure from centre of lower link to centre of axle.

Long fork 435mm (17.125” by tape measure from centre of lower link to centre of axle.

Henk posted a 1944 fork drawing which gave a centre of lower link to centre of axle dimension of 17 1/8" (17.125” - 435mm)

What is your number stamped on front of mudguard stem?

email (option): n.gentner@bigpond.com

Re: My front wheel saga

Sounds like Ron has a WDM20 chopper bike.. ...Ian

email (option): Ian@wright52.plus.com

Re: My front wheel saga

Ian Wright
Sounds like Ron has a WDM20 chopper bike.. ...Ian


I think that you're right, Ian. Rather than DU142s and MT110s, Ron's been fitting Bates headlamps and Maltese cross rear lights. I expect that his magneto is a Joe Hunt....

Can we call him "Bobber Ron" from now on ?

Re: My front wheel saga

No No! You blokes didn't read my post correctly. The measurement I gave was something Dave and I were looking at.
I have just carefully made the measurement Neale has asked for and I make it 16 5/8". Blowed if I can see a part number though. Ron

Photobucket

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Re: My front wheel saga

Horror
there was a difference in the measurements from the spindle going through the bottom fork yoke and the wheel spindle, on each side.


We weren't talking about fork length but from the bottom yoke spindle to the front wheel spindle. We took this measurement in case the fork linkages were bent or twisted or the bottom yoke was bent. This distance will change depending on weather the forks are compressed or not, but just wanted them the same. So fully extended it would be a chopper M20

email (option): horror@blueyonder.co.uk

Re: My front wheel saga

Ron Pier
Blowed if I can see a part number though. Ron


I think I can see the number, in your case it appears to be vertical but located immediately under the spring pad.
I think it is:

6
6
-
5
0
?
?

I can't make out the last two digits.
From my data, a short fork with left side speedo drive, and full size mudguard stem, should be stamped 66-5010, but you may have a fork which is new to me?

email (option): n.gentner@bigpond.com

Re: My front wheel saga

G,day.My 3 short forks are stamped 665014 and my 2 longer forks are stamped 665016.All off war bikes,or at least the first layer of paint was green.Sam.

email (option): smarwick@iprimus.com.au

Re: My front wheel saga

Sam,
Do your 66-5014 forks have standard mudguard stems or are their stems shorter than the 66-5016 mudguard stems?

email (option): n.gentner@bigpond.com

Re: My front wheel saga

Mudguard stems all seem to be 1"5/8.long.I could be wrong about the green paint on the 665016 forks,none of my bikes are restored and everything is a bit rusty.

email (option): smarwick@iprimus.com.au

Re: My front wheel saga

Well done on your eyesight Neale! I have just checked with a torch and magnifying glass and can confirm 66-5014.
I also have these forks below with #66-5014 and are 16 5/8" between spindle centres. Not sure what is going on with the mudguard support? But I'm not bothered as they are for my BSA/Indian special and I'll be putting a nicer top hat spacer in place of the hex. Ron

Photobucket

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Re: My front wheel saga

Hi Ron, Looks like someone might have used the fitting from between the lifting handle and mudguard bracket instead of the mudguard spacer. The mudguard mount also appears to have been shortened...it looks to be too small a diameter at the lower end.....Ian

email (option): Ian@wright52.plus.com

Re: My front wheel saga

I've actually got that part of the forging that the mudguard bolts to, it got sawn off a set of wm20 girders in the late 70's & the forks were being chromed for a custom machine.
Anyway being the hoarder i am i kept the part & came across it in a box with its distinctive flared shape & 5/16" bscy threaded hole.
If you wanted to weld an original part back on it would be free to anyone.

Re: My front wheel saga

Ahh...the things we used to do...The only parts that weren't chromed on my Gold Star was the alloy racing tank and the frame...I'd probably get dragged down the road behind a standard DBD34 Clubmans if I turned up at a (boring) Gold Star owners club meeting with that bike today...Sadly, 'Iconic' status does have a tendency to produce very dull, identical motorcycles...Ian

email (option): Ian@wright52.plus.com

Re: My front wheel saga

Thanks for the offer Bill. But I will be going out of my way to disguise them as M20 forks. Like sawing off the brake rod lug and headlamp brackets for starters.
And yes Ian. I think you a right about that fitting. No idea why the lug was sawn shorter?

Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Re: My front wheel saga

66-5014 fork blade, 1940-41 WD WM20 (1940 C-7287, 1941 RAF) = stamped number identical to part number 66-5014 (420mm by my tape measure from centre of lower link to centre of axle)
IMPORTANT NOTE: According to the parts books, Rons forks and a set I have, 66-5014 forks have their mudguard stem shortened by ½”, i.e. length of mudguard stem is approx 1 ¼” (32mm).
According to the parts books, 66-5014 fork is used with ½” long 66-6557 front mudguard distance piece (machined from hex) as per Ron's pic.

That hex extension stud is the proper BSA part.
The shortening of mudguard stem was done by BSA.
The reason is unconfirmed.

My speculation is BSA went to the 66-5016 long fork for the big contracts but used up what ever was lying around for the small contracts.
The pre war Goldies used this same short mudguard stem to allow clearance for 21" front tyres on competition models, and the same mudguard distance piece 66-6557 when standard wheel and mudguard used on M24 touring models.
By making the special 66-5014 fork with short mudguard stem the WM20 assembly line didn't have to be re-trained to fit mudguard distance piece 66-6557 only on some contracts. And BSA cleared all stocks of M24 fork castings.

BSA were once very adept at economical mass production.

email (option): n.gentner@bigpond.com

Re: My front wheel saga

Hi Ron,

I don't have the net at home any more. I'll have to put my drawing onto a thum drive and get byou tomorrow.

email (option): britool51@hotmail.coom

Re: My front wheel saga

I now have my bike back together. Happily my back wheel is dead in line with the front. Just wondering if it's ever going to stop raining long enough for the roads to dry out? Ron

Photobucket

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

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