Hi All,
When I took my bike to the local motor vehicle department to get licensed (middle east/Burma bike), the inspector looked at the engine numbers and said they were too crooked and looked like a re-stamp to him (they look the same as any other m20 engine numbers i have seen). So now I need to take it to a different department where they will 'verify' the bike numbers.

I was wondering two things:
1. Can anyone who has a photo of their engine number post it, so that I can show that they were all pretty crooked...?
2. Can anyone tell me why the engine numbers are like this? I can't think why bikes that were put together with relatively close tolerances would have numbers that look so hastily done...?
Thanks,
Nick

email (option): nicktog@gmail.com

When they ask me about the numbers on a military vehicle data plate being to few, or not correct for that year, my reply has always been " you know there was a war on".
Most of the time it works on this side of the pond.
One of the few, Frank USMC RET

hi nick,i would presume that the frame was stamped at the point of manufacture,or on final inspection,and this would prolly have been done with the frame on its side,
this makes the operation a lot easier.
the engine would then be fitted to the frame and stamped with the same number as the frame but in the vertical plane.
if you have no experience of number / letter stamps
this is no mean fete to get them level and straight
put this with the tedium of doing it perhaps 20 to 30 times a shift,with the pressure on and i can see why they are a bit haphazzard.
as an exercise get hold of a set and try and stamp your name in a straight line,i think even with a couple of guide lines scribed for reference it will take you about ten attempts to get a presentable result.
also if you dont quite hit the stamp hard enough,it is very difficult to pick up the same impression again,
if you hit he stamp anywhere but dead square,it will ping off into the abyss under a machine or a workbench that hasn't been cleaned for years,
then you spend half an hour on your hands and knees
searching for it.
there are now block sets where you set out the characters of type in a holder,screw them all up tight
and hit the holder with a lump hammer,and hope for the best,then you need to re-set it for the next number
fiddly things,time consuming ,and one hopeful shot at it.
hope this helps in your quest for a reason
cheers rick

email (option): richardholt@rocketmail.com

To be honest, if the numbers were in line I'd be more suspicious, I use stamps quite a bit on custom frames and as Rick says they are very hard to get dead straight and get a good impression on the first strike, even if you use brand new quality stamps, not the Chinese/Taiwanese offerings. Sometimes you mis-strike the number and have to carefully re-align the numer and strike it again. The problem is compounded by the fact that the tube is curved, so the outer edges of the number leave a lighter impression, so sometimes you have to angle the stamp on each side and re-strike it so that the top and bottom of the number is as deeply cut. The holders for the stamps don't really help as the load from the hammer is spread over a larger area as consequently leaves a lighter impression.

email (option): davmax@ntlworld.com

Worth adding that an "M" crankcase engine number runs along a curved surface (a straight edge shows it to be raised at the centre) making the use of a block stamping device difficult & is further evidence/proof to any inspector who knows his job that these engines weren't stamped in one go with a stamp holder. I think your more likely to get a few pictures of numbers from people if you get the ball rolling yourself ....
Are we going to get photo of the offending number?

I think that one thing to bear in mind here is that the introduction of 'matching' engine and frame numbers appears to have been at the behest of the Ministry of Supply or the War Office.

I can't think of any major pre-war make that had matching numbers. Norton started with the first WD contract at W1000 and BSA began to duplicate the numbers at WM20 1305 which was a Dutch Government order but something must have caused the re-think.

It's quite evident that prior to this, engines were simply stockpiled and not used in any real rotation when fitted to frames. Pre-war engine number stampings do seem to be a little better and they were probably stamped on the bench.

I can't imagine that the whole system of production altered when the matching numbers were decided upon and it would have been impossible to match each number from the stockroom with the correct frame, just as production was being doubled for the war effort.

It seems clear to me, as suggested earlier that the engines were fitted unstamped and then the frame number was duplicated onto the crankcase once fitted. This means that not only was it being stamped on an uneven surface but it was being done vertically, under time pressure and probably by an apprentice who knew that he was going to get his call-up papers any day.

I would second the suggestion to post a copy of your numbers here. The number forms are distinctive and the experts here will be able to tell you if it is a re-stamp. However, even if it is, it could have been stamped quite legitimately on replacement crankcases during its service career so I don't really understand what the authorities are hoping to prove.

Which country are you in ?

If you watched the 3 Triumph manufacturing films that Rick mentioned a few days ago you'd have seen them being stamped my hand.

It's film 2 and 1.22 minutes into it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=ipiD6nm7Iy0

email (option): horror@blueyonder.co.uk

Hi Nick,
I'm confused why the inspector would be making an issue of this as a bike/ car is dated and verified on its Frame or cahssis Number and not the engine number. This is due to the fact engines are easily and often changed.
I am of course assuming you are in the UK!
I would hazard the inspector is not aufait with classic vehicles.
Regards
Clive

email (option): cliveandjo@lineone.net

Rik,

AJS had matching frame, engine and gearbox numbers from the mid-20's at least.

My 1926 AJS most certainly has..... doubt that it was an MOD initiative?

Bruce

email (option): brucekirby@telkomsa.net

Hi Bruce,

We know that Norton, BSA and Royal Enfield all started to use "matching numbers" (or a "duplicated frame number on the engine" to be precise) in early 1940. That's why we suspect that this may have been an Army directive. On the other hand, the WD Ariels never had "matching numbers", and neither did the Matchlesses Could this matching numbers "conspiracy" have been a silly coincidence I wonder?

Cheers,
Jan

email (option): wd.register@gmail.com

Okay, here is the offending number (WM20 9244). According to O & M book, I get that this is a late '39, early '40 motor.

Everyone: thanks very much for the replies, I talked to the officer yesterday, he quite liked the bike, accepted the frame number for the VIN, and said he had seen crooked older numbers before. He had no problem with either number really, but did say that the other guy was right to send this bike to him, as he (the first one) wasn't qualified to make that distinction. He originally thought he would have to give me a 2012 ID number, but felt confident in the frame number, and so used that, and allowed the title to show 1943, as O & M says my frame is.

Clive: I am in california, and I believe that for a while, or still even, they used the engine number rather than frame. The problem for the first guy was just that it looked like it could have been re-stamped, which means they suspect it could be stolen and so wouldn't have given the numbers, not so much that he had to have an engine number, I think.

Again, thanks everyone for the info, the officer seemed really interested in all the reasons you all gave, almost as though it answered questions on other bikes he had seen...

email (option): nicktog@gmail.com

If they are using engine number to identify then it is a whole different thing as I'm sure most people here like me just assumed it would be like the UK system & done on frame no.
I have to say I'm seeing a faint "5" between the 4's.
That HAS been through a bit more than simply having numbers not in a straight line!.
but the main stamps look like the correct style & you got sorted in the end which is the main thing.

This must be an American thing. I know that wartime Harley Davidsons (WLA,WLC) only have engine numbers, no frame numbers. Paul