Questions? Looking for parts? Parts for sale? or just for a chat,

The WD Motorcycle forum

WD Motorcycle forum
Start a New Topic 
Author
Comment
Deactivated Firearms on Motorcycles

I'm no expert on firearms, but I was talking to a chap the other day who is a WW2 re-enactor. He says that Deactivation Certificates need to be carried with all firearms at shows now (sensible enough) and that firearms can only be displayed at the designated show. In other words, if you've got a deactivated revolver in your holster and you are riding your bike, you are actually breaking the law until you go through the gates of the show you are attending? I can see what he's saying regarding both these points and I've heard the rules regarding certificates before, but does anyone know for sure what the rules are for re-enacters carrying guns on motorcycles?

email (option): rickandjo@pullen14.freeserve.co.uk

Re: Deactivated Firearms on Motorcycles

This is a grey area..The firearms act specifically states it is illegal to carry a 'reaslistic imitation weapon'...However, strangely, the act also states..'If a weapon bears an approved house mark and has been certified in writing as deactivated it is presumed to be incapable of discharging bullet or shot. Deactivated weapons are expressely excluded from the definition of a 'realistic imitation weapon' and are therefore not affected by the new 'realistic imitation' offence. Section 8 firearms ammendment act'...(source..The Crown Prosecution Website)
The Police certainly seem to have trouble differentiating between a 'realistic imitation firearm' and a 'deactivated weapon' and it could be argued that a living history event which is open to the public is a 'public place', yet is seems OK to carry a deactivated weapon in that situation. Ergo, you might conclude it should be OK to carry one in an actual 'public place'..ie the street.
Personally, due to the confusion over the definitions I wouldn't be inclined to carry a deact on the streets unless I had an interest in defining the law by virtue of a 'test case'..It seems to me you are highly likely to attract the attention of the Police, whether that is warranted or not...Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Re: Deactivated Firearms on Motorcycles

Good points and well put Ian. It's a shame, but I agree entirely that if you carry a Webley around in public you are bound to attract the attention of the Police, whatever your reasons and whatever the word of the law says.

email (option): rickandjo@pullen14.freeserve.co.uk

Re: Deactivated Firearms on Motorcycles

The firearms act is open to interpretation and different Police forces interpret it there own way. I'm an FAC holder and therefore have known a lot of people fall fowl to there area's Police forces idea of what the firearms act means.

As far as I know, any firearm has to be in a cover in a public place. I sometimes ride my bike to the shooting range with my rifle in a sleeve on my back and a box of ammo in my pocket. If I get stopped I'm not breaking the law, the rifle is covered and I'm licensed to carry it.
A deactivated gun is still a firearm, hence you need a certificate to prove if can't fire, and you don't need a certificate for an imitation firearm because it's not or never been a firearm. So I would say as long as your deac is covered, it's legal.

Like Ian says, you might find yourself defending this in court depending on what area you live in. That's if you're lucky..! In days of old, you may be stopped by the Police and a friendly Bobby will go through your paperwork, it's all in order and off you go. But if a member of the public calls the Police and says I've just seem a man riding a motorbike with a pistol in his belt, you'll have the armed response unit out. They've been known to shoot first and ask questions later..! and in today's climate, have got away with every mistake they've made. Like the bloke in London who was shot for carrying a table leg! and the armed response vehicle that was called out to a 10 year old playing with a purple plastic water pistol in a playground! I also know a bloke who went to a Royal mail workers fancy dress party, as Rambo with a plastic toy gun that had a bright red plastic end on the barrel. Someone called the Police and said I've just seen a man with a gun go into this house, as he walked home from the party. His phone rang saying this is armed Police outside your house, to which he thought it was his mates messing about and told them it's late, so f**k off. The door came in and he was dragged out.

Ok, scaremongering aside, if you're riding dressed as a DR on a 1940's bike and don't stop and walk into a shop or a garage with a pistol on your belt, you'll be ok

email (option): horror@blueyonder.co.uk

Re: Deactivated Firearms on Motorcycles

After the dunblane incident I got phone calls from all over the world, turns out BT had issued me a number just previously used by a firearm specialist in my town & he hadn't updated his press contacts. The Guy is Jan A Stevenson, he went on to help put together the white paper on firearms after Dunblane, he also is a keen "anything ww2" enthusiast, he drinks at my local & if anyone would know, he would know, but I bet he would simply say, regardless of the rules, don't be anywhere with anything that looks like a firearm that a member of the public or officer of the law could mistake you for being a threat, because you are likely to be taking a risk.

Edit, I didn't see your post horror before posting mine, ....
Incidently, I have a few Percussion pistols & they are antiques really but when I checked with my police firearms Guy at Chelmsford about ownership he excitedly said "no, they can't touch you, for having those & you can make your own shot" its not exactly what I expected from a copper

Re: Deactivated Firearms on Motorcycles

It's a shame, but I suppose it's the world we live in today and you can see why the Police can't afford to take chances where firearms are concerned. As you say, you'd probably be able to talk your way around the local Bobby, but the Armed Response folks are a different matter.

email (option): rickandjo@pullen14.freeserve.co.uk

Re: Deactivated Firearms on Motorcycles

Something like this during the Olympics could be problematic. ...

Re: Deactivated Firearms on Motorcycles

I hope the brakes are good on that bike, as the gun looks like it could have quite a bit of recoil when fired!!

email (option): rickandjo@pullen14.freeserve.co.uk

Re: Deactivated Firearms on Motorcycles

Regarding carrying firearms in the street, I'd avoid it under ANY circumstances. It's not just the trigger-happy, gung-ho armed response coppers you have to consider, it's the ordinary jobsworth - of which we've got a surfeit in the UK at the moment.

If you get arrested for suspicion of possession of a firearm, you'll be escorted away in handcuffs, banged in a cell, then DNA swabbed, have your mugshot taken, prints taken, and be generally humiliated while they sort it out. After that, your photograph can be used without your permission on modern computer based ID line-ups. And if you get arrested in the UK for any offence (even if not charged or if proved innocent), the next time you try to enter America you could get stopped at the US border and turned away (and then refused subsequent entry). Or, if you want to avoid this, you'll be expected to visit the US Embassy and apply for a visa before travel (and explain what you did or didn't do wrong).

Being arrested by the British state isn't "straightforward" anymore. So avoid it at all costs. The UK police don't even have much discretion on whether or not to arrest. If an allegation is made against you, it's open season and the machine starts grinding away relentlessly.

The irony being that these war bikes were used to fight for freedoms that are fast being eroded. Instead we have a hysterical nanny state ready to jump on pretty much anyone it feels like jumping on. Even Magna Carta isn't safe.

Incidentally, as I understand it, muzzle-loading weapons are still perfectly legal, and so are firearms with obselete calibres - until you fire them and therefore effectively "reactivate" them as firearms.

email (option): dannydefazio@sumpmagazine.com

Re: Deactivated Firearms on Motorcycles

Hi Fred. Isn't that what I said? Or did I miss something?

email (option): dannydefazio@sumpmagazine.com

Re: Deactivated Firearms on Motorcycles

Yes I worded it badly & had deleted by time I read your reply.
I read this " until you fire them and therefore effectively "reactivate" them as firearms." & thought you meant it came back into the 97 act, but maybe you didn't mean that.

I'm going to talk to Jan about some of these points if he's in the pub next time, he did after all write some of the 97 act & he's a good laugh, he's from Alabama originally, his name was supposed to be Ian but the vicar read it wrong & they kept it as Jan

Re: Deactivated Firearms on Motorcycles

Hi Fred, actually that is what I meant, but I wasn't referring to antique collectible pistols. I was referring to obselete calibre guns.

I think that anything that is an obselete calibre is legal in the UK, provided it's hung on a wall or something. But once you manufacture ammo for it and start using in on the shooting range or in the supermarket or whatever, it comes under the firearms act.

I got this information from Mick at Mick's gun who was nicked by the Met for a range of alleged firearms offences and subsequently acquitted. I think Mick knows the law better than the police. He certainly ought to by now.

I think muzzle loading weapons can be used legally in the UK without coming under the firearms act. Is that your understanding?

email (option): dannydefazio@sumpmagazine.com

Re: Deactivated Firearms on Motorcycles

just to add my pennies worth i was told that i couldnt wear a webley revolver unless i belonged to a reenacters club by a few shows that i emailed also i have replica 1851 naval colt which is deactivated but it is classed as a cap gun because of the little caps used to activate the powder funny old laws

email (option): roger.beck@node6.com

Re: Deactivated Firearms on Motorcycles

Well although mine are hung on the wall, they are serviceable (I wouldn't try as they are terriblly unreliable) & are effectively obsolete calibre muzzle loaded guns, yes legal to own, but the policeman did point out that I could fire stones, his mention of preparing shot I think was a joke as its "manufacturing" ammunition.
The muzzle loader as I read it aren't included in the 97 act.
As they are slow loading & not likely to be used by criminals, however if you convert them in any way it appears they can cone under the firearms act. But I don't think if you simply "fire" one.

Re: Deactivated Firearms on Motorcycles

I think the upshot of all this is that it's probably best not to go down the gun route at all? Just out of interest, I've been having a look at the prices of deactivated guns at some dealers on line and I think the cost is probably reason enough not to get one!

email (option): rickandjo@pullen14.freeserve.co.uk

Re: Deactivated Firearms on Motorcycles

Obsolete calibre firearms, are bullet sizes that are not commercially available, so therefore no ammunition can be bought. There is a list of calibre that this applies to.
Muzzle loading firearms come under the antique section and are legal to hold without a license as long as it is an original. I don't know off hand what the cut off year is, but if you have a newly make muzzle loading firearm, it will have to be on your license.

You can make ammunition for obsolete calibre firearms and if you have 1 round of ammunition, it becomes an illegal firearm unless put on a license.

I shoot a Martini Henry breech-loading rifle which is an obsolete calibre, so it has to go on my license. I've done well with it in competitions at Bisley, winning both the "Mad minute" trophies at the 2 meetings that year. I fired 14 rounds in a minute, all hitting a target at 200 yards.

Photobucket

It is of course a BSA (Only cus Norton never made guns) made in 1889 by BSA&M Co
Does that make it the oldest BSA here

Photobucket

email (option): horror@blueyonder.co.uk

Re: Deactivated Firearms on Motorcycles

roger
just to add my pennies worth i was told that i couldnt wear a webley revolver unless i belonged to a reenacters club by a few shows that i emailed also i have replica 1851 naval colt which is deactivated but it is classed as a cap gun because of the little caps used to activate the powder funny old laws

It appears that the person that told you that must have thought it was a replica, not deactivated, to own a blank firer or replica gun you must be a member of an appropriate club such as the MVT as these are covered by the VCR act, or apparently it must be painted red (I think it was red)To own a deactivated gun it must only be covered in public which as everyone has said is just "common sense" so as not to cause alarm and make sure that you keep the certificate handy just to prove it as such if stopped.

email (option): davmax@ntlworld.com

Re: Deactivated Firearms on Motorcycles

I have a deactivated Enfield revolver, but since I'm in Canada, the rules are likely different, though just as confusing.
I can't buy a plastic replica of the Webley or Enfield, as that is classified as a "prohibited device". Nor can I, without a Restricted Possesion and Acquisition License, purchase or own an active Enfield or Webley revolver. HOWEVER, I can buy without restrictions or license, a deactivated revolver. From a foot away, it looks as active and dangerous as it's previous life before deactivation. Yes, it came with a certificate to declare it as deactivated. I can buy a Bren, Sten or any other deactivated machine gun without restriction too, but those are only able to be owned in their active form, by somebody with a grandfathered version of the Firearms Acquisition license. Couldn't buy any automatic active machine gun now in any case even if I wanted one, unless it has been irreversibly modified to semi-auto status- in which case it is classed the same as a lee-Enfield rifle, non-restricted! (but you still need a Possesion and acquistion license to own one) .
But as one guy told me, "Start waving that around in public and it will get you shot by the cops just like a real gun would!

email (option): vinver#ns.sympatico.ca

Re: Deactivated Firearms on Motorcycles

Regulations for black powder guns are less stringent in the UK..but you do need an 'explosives license' to have black powder!..Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Re: Deactivated Firearms on Motorcycles

Being that I am in the US, I have a fully active "War Finish" Webley for my holster, but to avoid any problems, I have an old toy cap gun that I use instead. I painted it black, and screwed an eyelet into the butt so I can use the lanyard. With the correct holster, you really can't see the pistol at all-the cap gun just fills out the holster, and gives it some weight.

email (option): m20wc51@yahoo.com

Re: Deactivated Firearms on Motorcycles

Re, The price of deactivated guns.

It depends on whether you have the new style deact, that is virtually everything welded up, including the selector lever on automatics or old style fully field strippable. The new style wall-hangers are fairly cheap, whereas old style deacts are increasing in price.

email (option): stinkypete80@hotmail.com

Re: Deactivated Firearms on Motorcycles

The .38 Enfields I was looking at were welded solid and seemed very expensive and it's seems like even more if you can only look at it in your own living room, with the lights off and the curtains drawn!

email (option): rickandjo@pullen14.freeserve.co.uk

Nieuwe pagina 1