Hello!

Can anyone give some information about following frames:
WM20 6865
WM20 12091
WM20 89610

And very interesting combination:
WM20 192 frame with KM22 190 engine fitted

Thanks
Kalle

email (option): kalle.tikas@gmail.com

Hi Kalle,

This is what I can find.

WM20 6865: matching numbers De Luxe 14-10-1939 War Office London

WM20 12091: matching numbers 9-1-1940 War Office London

WM20 89610: numbers over WM20 69699 are not available in the information I have.

From some contract the engine numbers are available and from others the frame numbers. When bikes have matching numbers it's easy but for both WM20 192 frame and KM22 190 engine it will be a lot of work to find as they both come from non matching numbers motorcycles. They can be found but it could take me a long time to find these.

Henk

email (option): ahum@quicknet.nl

Hello
This WM20 89610 have matching engine too. Its strange bike with right hand sidecar frame and lot of earlier parts.
what is possibilities to get more information about this KM22 engined bike?

Thanks
Kalle

email (option): kalle.tikas@gmail.com

I have no information on the M22 model but I can confirm that Frame no. WM20 192 was an M20 de Luxe supplied to The War Office on 12/9/39 and was fitted originally with engine number WM20 1799. This sequence is confirmed by both the engine and frame registers.

Are these Norway bikes ? All the early ones are indeed early enough to have been abandoned in 1940 and the higher number is what would be expected for post-war supplies.

A phone call to the VMCC should get you an answer on where the M22 was delivered.

Most of WM20 bikes I have seen in Estonia are early models and probably came with germans.

email (option): kalle.tikas@gmail.com

Sorry Kalle, I thought that you were in Norway. There is certainly plenty of evidence of the Germans using BSAs captured when France fell. The British lost more than 20,000 motorcycles.

Much of the captured material went east in 1941 but Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine units seem to have often held onto what they took for the duration.

Have you seen any evidence of early Norton 16Hs in Estonia ?

Hi Kalle,

I can try to find more information about the KM22 as they are probably in these lists, but it will take me a long time of searching in the number lists. BSA made a real mess of these numbers and from some BSA's I have the engine numbers and from others the frame numbers. From both your numbers I have the opposite list and that makes it real hard to look.

For example, my BSA XB31 has frame number XB31 4689. Most of these bikes with numbers close to mine have engine numbers pretty close to the frame number and left the factory in 1946. Mine for some reason left the factory in 1947 with an engine number XB31 9075. As I don't have the original number I was wondering what the original engine number might have been but I had to look through these lists 3 times to find my frame on a place I didn't expect it.

Henk

email (option): ahum@quicknet.nl

Hi Rik,
There is much less 16H-s in Estonia than M20-s but I saw one engine couple of weeks ago. I'm not familiar with Nortons and their numbering system, so I can't tell you was it early or not. I can call to owner and ask of course if you are interested.
Henk, I would not like to overload you with paperwork, but I will be very grateful if you do that

email (option): kalle.tikas@gmail.com

Kalle, I'd be very interested to see a photograph of the engine number if that's possible. There is a good chance that it will be in the range W1000 to W7000 if it is wartime production or else, without a prefix, in the high 90000s. In that case, I can let the owner have more information about date etc. and possibly a copy from the factory records.

Hi Rik, I will call to owner tomorrow. I remember there was W prefix and bore X stroke stamped.

There is interesting story about this WM20 89610 which belongs to my friend. It was his grandads bike and comes from russia. Grandad told that it was before soviet officers bike and have been always in civil colours. Bike has right hand british sidecar. Rumour says that there was batch of bikes which british coverment gave to Stalin as a gift. and they were use as convoy bikes on parades

email (option): kalle.tikas@gmail.com

Kalle,

Engine KM22.190 (two port upswept pipes) was fitted to frame KM20.4789 and despatched on 18 August 1939 to a London firm. It is hard to read the name of the firm but it is something like: The Red Slate Society Ltd.

Funny enough the next 2 engines 191 and 192 went to Riga, which if I am correct is in Estonia.

Regards,
Leon

email (option): leonhop3@planet.nl

Hi Kalle,

I did manage to find the frame. Frame number WM20 192 left the factory 12-9-1939 with engine WM20 1799.

Just as a piece of history, the BSA with frame number WM20 101 had engine number WM20 888 I always expected that bike to have matching numbers being WM20 101 but it didn't

Henk

email (option): ahum@quicknet.nl

Riga, Latvia!

Thank you. It's unbelievable that you can tell me all this today - after more than 70 years!

Is there any records about later machines too?

BTW Riga is very nice city and also very close to Estonia.

Kalle

email (option): kalle.tikas@gmail.com

We have quite a lot of BSA information, for what bike do you need it?

Henk

email (option): ahum@quicknet.nl

for WM20 89610 with funny story

email (option): kalle.tikas@gmail.com

Hi Kalle,

Frame numbers over WM20 69699 are not available in the information we have.

Henk.

email (option): ahum@quicknet.nl

Although we have no factory ledgers for this period, we do know that 100% of motorcycle production was being regulated by the Ministry of Supply and the ledgers would simply have stated 'War Department'.It appears from the contract receipt cards that contract S1048 (15000 machines) was delivered to Royal Ordnance, Chilwell and comprised standard WD model M20s.

Chilwell distributed vehicles according to orders and were also responsible for those sent to allied governments.

The bike would originally have been allocated the British 'census' number C5123010. Delivery under this contract was scheduled for 2000 per month, commencing May 1943 which means this one probably went to Chilwell during September 1943.

It is impossible to know now if it was a standard USSR 'Lend-Lease' vehicle or if it was refinished and supplied as part of a post-war trade deal.

On the subject of the Norton engine, if it is early wartime production then in addition to the engine number, bore and stroke it will have an inspector's mark comprising an arrowhead and probably the number '74' but I don't know exactly when this commenced - it's one of the things that I'm trying to tie down by noting as many details as possible. Your help is much appreciated.

Hi Rik
About 16H engine. Owner told me by phone engine number 79455. He is not able to mail me a picture. He is living in another town, so I will take this picture some other day.

email (option): kalle.tikas@gmail.com