After the recent BSA M20/M21 T-shirt, I got quite a few emails asking if there was anything else in the pipeline. Well there is, and this is it.

A couple of you guys have already seen this artwork, or variants of it (thanks for the input). It takes time to get it right; or, at least, get to a point where you have to stop mucking around with it.

I wanted to do something with wider appeal (unfortunately, small runs of shirts just aren't cost-effective). I chose a BSA image because, like it or not, that's the most common military bike. But it's not exclusively an M20 t-shirt.

I've got the samples in front me right now, and am just tweaking the colours a little and dealing with some technical issues (you wouldn't have thought there were many technical issues with a T-shirt, but there is - unless you want a very basic run-of-the-mill design).

The T-shirts are £15 each plus £3 postage UK and £4 the rest of the world. They're pre-shrunk, 100% cotton, black only. S, M. L and XL. As before, the fit is slightly loose.

If anyone's interested, let me know either here, or direct through my email, and I'll put one aside. I'll send a direct payment link.

Realistically, these shirts probably won't ship until after Easter (I'd be interested in some feedback. Good, bad, or indifferent).

Lastly, over the next 24 hours or so, I'll be posting a larger image on Sump (I just don't want to take up too much of Henk's bandwidth here). So look out for that.

That's it. Looking forward to selling one to Rik, if I can.

email (option): dannydefazio@sumpmagazine.com

Looks good Danny. If I bought one, would I also have to pay an image fee to Ron?

email (option): lee@twowheelstested.co.uk

Hi Lee, Ron does these things out of the goodness of his little heart.

email (option): dannydefazio@sumpmagazine.com

Couldn't you have used some other bike, Ron is getting attention enough as it is.

You should have ask the owner of this bike

email (option): ahum@quicknet.nl

Hmm, very interesting feedback. To his credit, Ron did suggest that he was perhaps suffering from a little over-exposure.

However, that was one of the best images I had at the time. I'll be happy to substitute if for another if anyone's got a good side view showing a representative M20. Would be happy with a Norton too. Or two bikes side by side.

If I can get that image, there's still a little time to substitute it. Would be happier still with a good, high-res genuine WW2 pic. Any offers?

Funny how everyone recognises Ron's bike so quickly, when I photographed him for half an hour and can hardly remember what even he looks like. Must eb his face.

email (option): dannydefazio@sumpmagazine.com

Hi Danny..I would prefer W.D. bikes not War bikes...and a different bike...sorry Ron...An original photo would give it the 'period' feel better IMHO...Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Yes, I agree WD bikes is better.

Henk

email (option): ahum@quicknet.nl

Oooer...I've never worn a shirt with 'Harley Davidson' on before.

I too would probably prefer to see 'WD' or even 'Military Motorcycles' 'cause I'm a bit old-fashioned.

Period photos are difficult as most of the good high resolution images will be someone's claimed copyright. None of the 1940 originals from my small collection are suitable. Generally too many Germans in the background ! Henk might have something.

If you're looking for a Norton and want to save on poppy graphics, you're welcome to use one of mine with genuine Flanders poppies in the background.

There's an expression that says: A camel is a horse designed by committee.

Well I think we're starting work on a new camel here.



That said, there's some very useful feedback here too, plus a crash course in military motorcycles social politics. I think that War Bikes sounds much catchier. Like War Birds, or something - especially when you remember that (whisper this please) the "W" in WD stands for W-A-R.

I can easily change that T-shirt, and I'd like to use Rik's Norton if I can get a shot of the other side. Or if anyone's got a better image, I'll use that. Or genuine period imagery. But as Rik pointed out, the high-res stuff can be a bit hard to get and contentious too (in point of fact, the copyright on ALL the WW2 stuff has run out; 70 years, I think, is the limit).

I'd go down to my garage and photograph my own M20, except that it isn't militarised. So let's have some images. Whichever one I use, the owner gets a free shirt (and international fame).

Any other points of view out there?

email (option): dannydefazio@sumpmagazine.com

Forgot to mention; Ron didn't know anything about this until I sent him the image a couple of days ago, and I didn't know as much as I do now about Ron't bike appearing here and there in mags or whatever. It was just the best high-resolution shot I had, and I still like it fine.

A bike's a bike, isn't it? Well, perhaps not.

I spoke to Ron about it and he warned me that his bike had been seen plenty. Looks like I should have thought a little harder. Anyway, I can rework the design, but if there's not enough interest in principle, I'll abandon it. So let's hear it...

email (option): dannydefazio@sumpmagazine.com

I agree that WD Bikes is better. War Bikes sounds like a TV series, like Air Wolf, Knight Rider or Power Rangers
Rik's Norton looks good, or you could ask Ron for a picture of his 16H His bikes are some of the best you can find

email (option): horror@blueyonder.co.uk

I agree with others, I think WD Bikes is better and I would like one please.

Hi Danny, I think its a very good effort and I would put my name forward for one, War bike or WD bike makes little difference to me.
Pete

email (option): cruaser@aol.com

I think Riks Norton really looks the part in that photo..If he has a similar one of the other side that would be even better.
I agree with Horrors comments about 'War Bikes'..Personally, it's not a description I would ever use....or wear.
But put me down for a large 'Camel' if the design is modified...


....Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

I'm more than happy to have Ron's bike on a shirt, doubly so as the many pics that Ron has posted on this site have helped me assemble my own M20.

I'd also go with the WD Bikes and replace the 'Peace' with the chopped 'War' - WD Bikes The bikes than won the war.

Anyhow, even with a Norton on the front and unchanged lettering, I reckon I'd still have one.

Are the shirts of a generous fit? I'm normally medium to large, possibly closer to large..

email (option): lee@twowheelstested.co.uk

Good work Danny,
Another vote for WD rather than War, and i am biased but Riks or Rons 16H would be great.
Once the dust has settled you can put me down for one

All comments noted. Thanks for that. What I'm going to try and do is split the print run. It'll cost a little more, but I'll keep the selling price the same. I'm of a mind to print half the run with Rik's Norton, and the other half with Ron's BSA. Then you can fight it out amongst yourselves.



The caption will now read: RON'S BIKE; The bike that started another bloody war.

Lastly, I will change the lettering to WD. Lucky for you lot it was called War Department and not something like War Commission. What would you prefer on your shirts then?



Keep Calm and Carry On Ordering ...

email (option): dannydefazio@sumpmagazine.com

I'd like to see some of the "propaganda" advertisements from the wartime "motorcycling" magazines, they seem to capture the era so well and as they were usually just black on white paper would make a reasonably cheap screen to print them with. There were some pretty artistic ones that would look great on tee shirts. I just sold my maggazines to Hank (not Henk) on the forum and he gave me the impression he would oblige as when I emailed him he was open to the idea of lending/selling some for this purpose

email (option): davmax@ntlworld.com

Hi Danny..'The Great British Compromise' is alive and well.. ...I've already complained to Ron that I've seen more of his M20 than I have of mine.. ..So I'll take a large please featuring Riks 16H...Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Hi Dave, it's a lot harder than you might think to print good T-shirts. Screens cost a significant amount of money to set up, and if you need colour, or tones, you need a white underlay (for lift). Old magazine artwork is already dot-screened. That will break down further when printed, and if you enlarge the artwork, the resolution will drop. Silk screen prints at only 72 dpi, but you still need decent quality artwork or the results can end up a slushy/muddy mess (digital prints at 300dpi, and it also demands quality images).

Any changes mean more screens. Often, the screen printers screw up. They did for me; I've used three so far, and they've all made significant errors. I've trashed 50o BSA M20 T-shirts (different design) because the quality just wasn't there. Granted, most people wouldn't notice. Or care. But some would. And if people return poor quality T-shirts, that costs you money. And if they return from across the world, that costs you a lot more money.

If you go digital, the set-up cost is negligible, but the unit cost is higher. And digital machines aren't all the same. Some have weird quirks that screw up the printing. Some look muddy. Some have "line creep". Some print very dull colours. SOme won't even print certain colours and will substitute the "wrong" colour.

Some T-shirts arrive blotchy (time and money).

Then you have to factor in postage costs, packaging, labelling and handling, and that gets (slightly) more complicated with multiple purchases due to anomalies in the postal system.

Then you need to communite with your customers and keep some kind of double-check.

Then you have to be sure you can break even, let alone make a profit. The BSA M20 T-shirt made a little money, but not that much. You need to sell hundreds, or thousands, to make a reasonable income from it. And if you factor in the time working on the designs, it's made almost nothing. Part of the reason for doing them was simply that I wanted to see some half-decent M20 shirts on the market.

There are other problems too (fabric choice, T-shirt design issues, stretch, fade, general quality). It goes on and on.

If you want to do it for fun, the issues aren't so pressing. But beyond that, it's hard work. And often frustrating. Unless you want to print second rate shirts. Then it's easy.

If you want to see (what we think) is a very good design with good quality black and white print (actually a greyscale print) check out the "Goggles" T-shirt on Sump. I didn't post it here because it's not appropriate for the forum, but this has taken weeks to get right and might take a long time to pay for itself.


Forgot to mention sizing problems. 50 T-shirts broken into four, or five, sizes can easily leave you ought of stock on certain sizes. When I realised what lot of fat/big/generously proportioned bastards there are on this site, I had to order another 25. Then I discovered that I sold one more small size than I had in stock and had to get more of them too. It's all tricky stuff.

email (option): dannydefazio@sumpmagazine.com

Thanks Ian, I've got that.

email (option): dannydefazio@sumpmagazine.com

I hope this subject isn't going to fill up the first page again!

I loved the M20/21 shirt I bought and the XL (I'm usually XXL) even fitted me (ruddy Hell!) so I would most definitely be interested in the war bikes BSA shirt. Good value for money too....

I have often thought of a BSA World Tour 1939-45 T-shirt with a list of dates and venues on the back like concert Tee's you see around. Maybe next time (if there is one)

email (option): stinkypete80@hotmail.com

Danny DeFazio

Hi Dave, it's a lot harder than you might think to print good T-shirts. Screens cost a significant amount of money to set up, and if you need colour, or tones, you need a white underlay (for lift). Old magazine artwork is already dot-screened. That will break down further when printed, and if you enlarge the artwork, the resolution will drop. Silk screen prints at only 72 dpi, but you still need decent quality artwork or the results can end up a slushy/muddy mess (digital prints at 300dpi, and it also demands quality images).

Any changes mean more screens. Often, the screen printers screw up. They did for me; I've used three so far, and they've all made significant errors. I've trashed 50o BSA M20 T-shirts (different design) because the quality just wasn't there. Granted, most people wouldn't notice. Or care. But some would. And if people return poor quality T-shirts, that costs you money. And if they return from across the world, that costs you a lot more money.

If you go digital, the set-up cost is negligible, but the unit cost is higher. And digital machines aren't all the same. Some have weird quirks that screw up the printing. Some look muddy. Some have "line creep". Some print very dull colours. SOme won't even print certain colours and will substitute the "wrong" colour.

Some T-shirts arrive blotchy (time and money).

Then you have to factor in postage costs, packaging, labelling and handling, and that gets (slightly) more complicated with multiple purchases due to anomalies in the postal system.

Then you need to communite with your customers and keep some kind of double-check.

Then you have to be sure you can break even, let alone make a profit. The BSA M20 T-shirt made a little money, but not that much. You need to sell hundreds, or thousands, to make a reasonable income from it. And if you factor in the time working on the designs, it's made almost nothing. Part of the reason for doing them was simply that I wanted to see some half-decent M20 shirts on the market.

There are other problems too (fabric choice, T-shirt design issues, stretch, fade, general quality). It goes on and on.

If you want to do it for fun, the issues aren't so pressing. But beyond that, it's hard work. And often frustrating. Unless you want to print second rate shirts. Then it's easy.

If you want to see (what we think) is a very good design with good quality black and white print (actually a greyscale print) check out the "Goggles" T-shirt on Sump. I didn't post it here because it's not appropriate for the forum, but this has taken weeks to get right and might take a long time to pay for itself.


Forgot to mention sizing problems. 50 T-shirts broken into four, or five, sizes can easily leave you ought of stock on certain sizes. When I realised what lot of fat/big/generously proportioned bastards there are on this site, I had to order another 25. Then I discovered that I sold one more small size than I had in stock and had to get more of them too. It's all tricky stuff.

email (option): davmax@ntlworld.com

That's a great idea Sir Ewok Enough with the M20's though

I'll have a Large 16H T-shirt please

Oh and I agree it should be won the war, not peace. (Bloody Hippies get everywhere)

email (option): horror@blueyonder.co.uk

Hi Dave, yes, I get samples. But - oh, oh - the samples often vary. And each sample, naturally, costs money. You can't really have a silk screen sample (unless you want to pay for all the screens and the set-up costs). But if you get a digital sample, the result might be very different from a silk screened production run. In fact, it WILL be different.

For all the modern technology, it still requires someone to manually load or print the shirts. The operators are sometimes clumsy, or ignore basic instructions, or spatter the print, or "choke" the colours, or do all kinds of things. They invent new ways to screw up every time. That's not to say that you shouldn't try. It can work. But depending on the design, it could all come out very pear-shaped. And remember, what you see on a computer screen during the design process, can be a long way from the reality.

I've seen thousands of basic designs with an image or silhouette and some words thrown down on a Photoshop page. Some sell. Some don't. Generally, I wouldn't wear something like that. Or you can pirate logos, which I'm avoiding, and sell shirts that way. But people are fickle, and you often have to pay out hundreds of pounds to find out in what way.

Case in point, I did a fair amount of research on the above War Bikes shirt. I ride an M20 too and have some personal (limited) knowledge of the "genre". But Henk saw the original design and had some reservations of a different kind. But he didn't mention the fact that the phrase "War Bikes" might not be best. No disrespect to Henk. He gave me some other useful feedback. But the "WD" thing came out later after the first samples arrived.

Then I sent the design to Ron (who had mixed feelings about the use of his bike image). I under-estimated the response.

On the forum, there are now many different viewpoints. And poor Douglas wants to talk about something else.

The forum, of course, gives me the opportunity to adjust things to suit. But without that, you run the risk of offending people, or treading on sensibilities, or just coming up with a design that no one wants. And if you have a novelty T-shirt, often the novelty wears off before they get to Paypal. It all bears thinking about.

I can have shirts printed overseas at half the cost, but I want them printed here. In the UK. I want the shirts made here too, but that's unrealistic. They come from all over, including Europe. Nationally, there's not much difference in print price. For me, it often comes down to who I want to work with, and who I don't. Good business is also about good relationships, and not just profits. Am I right?

email (option): dannydefazio@sumpmagazine.com

email (option): ahum@quicknet.nl

True Danny, I believe that there are good people on this forum, who, like yourself who are prepared to give up the time, for what amounts to very little profit. (of course there has to be SOME profit to cover your outlay) Which is not in dispute.
What I'm trying to say is that around the capital city rent/rates/labour costs are very expensive. It isn't unusual up in this neck of the woods for someone to work for £6 or £7 ph, so possibly it would pay you to use a company up in this area, it dosen't mean that the quality is any less, just that the labour outlay is cheaper to make them, I'm willing to speak to the people that print the T shirts up here just to see if it could work out cheaper and to act as "go between" for free if you choose to go down this route. I believe that during this present economic crisis that a company can go one of two ways with the downturn in work, either charge more to cover for the shortfall, or they can go to cheaper quotes to try and get the work- I'm hoping that the companies up here the latter is applicable!
With regards to the "propaganda adverts" I think most of them were a solid colour not made up of dots, (I don't have any old mags to hand here at the moment) I know the photos were made up of dots.
My only concern with the T shirt design at the moment is that the Harley-Davidson is a registered trademark. I used to make leather wallets for a bike shop with Harley Davidson carved into them, as the Harley shop was an unofficial one they had a visit from Harleys lawyers along with an English solicitor who basically gave him a "cease and desist" notice for my wallets (and more of his own stuff)
Just a thought!
Dave

email (option): davmax@ntlworld.com

Ahh!..The joys of making things available for people to buy..or not. Once I started to get parts manufactured I soon realised why the study of marketing and the phsychology of the buying decision is a stand alone 'science'...It all seems very simple, but the buying public are a fickle bunch, and I include myself in that. An enormous amount of 'hidden' effort goes into making even what appear to be simple products available. Miscalculation of the demand, subtle features in the spec. of the product, production problems or a minor misinterpretation of the selling price all lie in wait to scupper the plan...and putting your scarce resources into it brings the risk sharply into focus...Danny's machinations on the subject have a familiar ring....I've expended considerable time and resources looking at the feasability of a number of products only to conclude they can't be produced at a 'selling price'..One project in particular could have been regarded as a 'sure fire' winner in terms of it's function but it was killed stone dead by the production costs...and every time you do 'commit' it feels like you are going to voluntarily take a swim in a shark infested pool...

....Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Hi Dave, Does that mean that anyone with a "Harley Davidson" tattoo can be sued for copy right unless they volunteer to be the property of the HD Company..?

email (option): horror@blueyonder.co.uk

WARBIKES GOOD FOR ME, cos its my email name !!I have ordered some shirts from the last ones you got printed,today. thanks andrew.h.

email (option): warbikes@gmail.com

Hi Horror..A lot of the people I have met with a Harley Davidson Tattoo would love to be the property of 'The MoCo'... ...Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Regarding the name Harley Davidson, I think it's fair usage to put it on a T-shirt in the manner I have. In much the same way, you can write an article about Harley Davidson in a newspaper or magazine and headline it with their name. It's fair game.

A T-shirt such as the War Bikes/WD Bikes is, in effect, just an article printed on another medium. Harley's lawyers wouldn't bother me. I could use the publicity, so bring it on.

The problems come when you APPROPRIATE their logo and try to pass off goods as their own. If anything, I ought to be charging them a fee for the publicity. Not that they need it at the moment with sales climbing again.

As for printing the T-shirts elsewhere in the country, the new samples were actually printed some way north of London. But thanks for the offer, Dave. Appreciated.

Incidentally, Harley are no more a "trademark threat" than Triumph, Norton, or BSA - or any of the other names on the shirt. In this context, I don't think it's an issue.

email (option): dannydefazio@sumpmagazine.com

The only thing is that Harley Davidson actively persue copyright/trademark breaches unlike a lot of other companies, but usually in the first instance they just go down the cease and desist route, but I think it is only fair to warn you as I lost about £350 of wallets, I did get round it though by sewing authorised Harley patches onto the remaining ones!
I did work for a proper Harley dealers and I believe they even went through the dealers stock, looking for unauthorised things there too!

email (option): davmax@ntlworld.com

Like I said, Dave. I don't think the War Bikes T-shirt is a copyright issue. It's fair use of the name "Harley-Davidson".

email (option): dannydefazio@sumpmagazine.com

Wouldn't it be funny if the government "crow's-foot" was copyright and as punishment, you were put inside and given a suit covered in...broad arrows !

Hi Rik, the broad arrow IS copyrighted. It's an offence to reproduce it, apparently. Some old charter from the middle ages or something. I don't know if anyone has ever been prosecuted in recent times.

email (option): dannydefazio@sumpmagazine.com

The BSA World Tour T-shirt was just a little idea that popped into my head, seeing as I own A Beezer, however any military bike would fit the bill. A Norton, Ariel or Matchless would do just as well and if Danny wants to make some later on, he is welcome to the idea.....

email (option): stinkypete80@hotmail.com