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Mar 14, 2012 - 1:02AM

Ariel W/NG

Hi
Did get home with an Ariel yesterday...
It is supposedly never restored, but not sure. What I know is that it was bought from Enlgand in 1987 and then it was an article in a motocycle magazine telling some of the English history was sold out. Anyone having any idea what magazine it might have been?
I bought this bike more or less unseen due to restoring another Ariel and I am in need of parts. But this one os to compleete to use as parts source :)
It has fram serial # XG12366
Can anyone tell me a bit of its history?
Hopefully 3 pictures is below here now :)
Rolf

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Rik

Mar 14, 2012 - 1:19AM

Re: Ariel W/NG

I would suspect an older restoration rather than an untouched machine. The number sequence KLE was issued in London during 1948 and I'd be surprised if a bike registered at that time could have been ridden around in military markings.

The 'crossed keys' indicates 2nd Infantry Division and the black background would seem to be the post-war type. They were in the Far East at the end of the war but later served in Germany with the British Army of the Rhine.

The most likely scenario is that it was restored in the 1970s to wear the markings used by the restorer during his post-war National Service in Germany.

Rolf S. Ask

Mar 14, 2012 - 1:33AM

Re: Ariel W/NG

Hi Rik
You might be very correct assuming an older restoration, that was also my first tought when I saw it. And the seller that is the son of the man that brought it to Norway also told something about it serving in the far east... well perhaps the truth is that the markings is to look like it did serve there...
But now I know it was for the first time in civilian use in 1948. That is also nice to know.
But what about the serial number? Is it an early number since it is XG12366 ?
My other Ariel has serial number XG 31682 and I was told that is an 1943 model and to have sensus number C4851932

Anyhow, it is a nice bike and I will fix it up, that meaning the mecanical and so, but not restore it for now. Just use it and enjoy it :)
Rolf

Jan

Mar 14, 2012 - 8:46AM

Re: Ariel W/NG

The Classic MotorCycle, June - July 1982:

Jan

email (option): wd.register@gmail.com

Mick Holmes

Mar 14, 2012 - 1:18PM

Re: Ariel W/NG

12366 puts it in contract C8302, demand date 8/8/40, completion date 10/12/40, with a delivery date of 18/7/40!(which seems odd, maybe '41) Frame numbers 11186-13285 and 13554-14153 2700 in total. Delivery to Chilwell, 153 for French government. C numbers ran C4311978 to 4314677. Looks like you have the rubber mounted bars, deleted from BH23937.
Cheers. Mick.

email (option): mick@motorbikemike.org.uk

Rolf S. Ask

Mar 14, 2012 - 3:10PM

Re: Ariel W/NG

Hi Mick
Thans a lot for the article and the info regadring the contract and so on. It is very interesting to know this :)
The bike has canvas grips if that is what you mean by "rubber mounted bars"....
I will have a good look at it one of the first days and then order some parts from Draganfly. It is missing the piston, so need that and some more bits to make it run.

I also did buy another Ariel in January, and do hope to collect it in a few weeks. That one have serial number XG20952 (Contract C10477). Picture below.

The bike I am restoring have serial number XG31682 (Contract C12450) Hopefully I will have all the parts needed in a Year and then have it assembled.

And yes, I do get a few parts needed for my restoration when buying a complete bike. It is always some extras... So then the question is how many bikes do I have before "my own bike" is complete :)

Once more, i really appreciate your info !
Rolf

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Mick Holmes

Mar 14, 2012 - 3:34PM

Re: Ariel W/NG

Hi Rolf, the rubber mounted bars is how the bars are fixed to the top yoke. It looks like it has them. Does the bars push through an H section then are clamped with large nuts? unlike your other bike that just has clamps to hold the bars on.
Cheers, Mick.

email (option): mick@motorbikemike.org.uk

Rolf S. Ask

Mar 14, 2012 - 3:43PM

Re: Ariel W/NG

Hi Mick
You are right. The first one is like you say, so is also the one I am restoring. So guess the one I am restoring is not how it is supposed to be since that one is the one with the highest serial number.
Rolf

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Mick Holmes

Mar 14, 2012 - 5:26PM

Re: Ariel W/NG

Just looked up XG31682, which is from contract C12450 demand date 12/11/41 delivered by Aug '42, so really its a '42 not '43. It should have solid mount bars by then. The numbers were XG29751 to 31750, C4850001 to C4852000, so your C number is about right.
Cheers, Mick.

email (option): mick@motorbikemike.org.uk

Rolf S. Ask

Mar 14, 2012 - 8:03PM

Re: Ariel W/NG

First. Jan thank you for posting the pictures from the magazine... I did just notice it was you and not Mick that posted... :)

And thanks once more to Mick for giving me the correct year for my XG31682.

Next must be to start the search for a side car to go with one of them, but guess that will be a tuff nut to crack

I also want paniers like the one on the picture above since it is the only one I have. Someone told me that they have started making repros like that one, but I have only found green ones on the net...

Rolf

Ron Pier

Mar 14, 2012 - 8:51PM

Re: Ariel W/NG

Rolf I think that W/NG is wearing army back packs as pannier bags. The best repros are from Schipper Fabrik in USA. Contact US: (615) 678-8559
schipperfabrik@comcast.net They have a website.
The only side-cars I have seen on an Ariel, are these supplied to the Home guard. It would be quite simple to make one. Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Rolf S. Ask

Mar 14, 2012 - 9:17PM

Re: Ariel W/NG

Ron
I did find their web-site, and guess I will order a set of paniers to check them out. Thanks.
And very nice picture !! The bikes and side cars are even camo painted. Never seen that before.
I guess it should not be to difficult to make a repro side car.
Rolf

Jan

Mar 14, 2012 - 9:30PM

Re: Ariel W/NG

Rolf S. Ask

First. Jan thank you for posting the pictures from the magazine... I did just notice it was you and not Mick that posted... :)
Rolf

Hi Rolf,

My pleasure!

It's always nice to find some details of your bike's early(ish) history isn't it!

Cheers,
Jan

email (option): wd.register@gmail.com

Rik

Mar 14, 2012 - 9:40PM

Re: Ariel W/NG

Jan might well be able to comment here as he has researched French sales but I believe that the French Government placed the initial contract and a few machines were delivered prior to the fall of France.

After this date, and the Dunkirk losses, the rest were hastily diverted to the War Department which accounts for why the contract was signed after deliveries started.

The Chilwell records show deliveries scheduled at 150 per week and the first were delivered on 25th June (It doesn't say but everything points to 1940)

There are a couple of photos of the bikes in service with the Vichy French regime.

Rolf S. Ask

Mar 14, 2012 - 10:43PM

Re: Ariel W/NG

Jan you are quit right, it is always very interesting to find the history of the bike (or vehicle). I can use many hours sanding down old layers of paint and ending up with something that makes more questions since it is very seldom I am that lucky that the whole marking is there.. see below. Anyone know what it might be??

Rik
Any idea how many bikes that was left at Dunkirk? And is there any pictures arround of british bikes in use by the german forces? We all know of the beutewagens they used...

Rolf

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Jan

Mar 14, 2012 - 10:44PM

Re: Ariel W/NG

Rik

From the book “L’automobile sous l’uniforme” by François Vauvillier:

The British motorcycle orders

In order to try to fill up the shortages due to the inability of the Simca – Sevitame (*) concern, in December 1939 the CEMAV (**) sent an officer (lieutenant de Baulny) to Great Britain, with a mission to investigate the British possibilities.

( (*): the Sevitame (Société d'Etude des Véhicules Issus de la Technique Automobile Moderne et Economique) was a French motorcycle that had been developed for the French armed forces. Editor)
( (**): CEMAV: Commission d'Expériences du Matériel Automobile de Vincennes)

With the exception of Ariel and Velocette, the English factories were already engaged in the War Office programmes. But, with the agreement of the British government, some of them were capable of delivering a complement of their motorcycle production to France, within reasonable terms. De Baulny returns from his mission in England in January 1940, with a complete study of the British possibilities. The result of this was a firm deadline, from March until July, for the delivery of 6.600 motorcycles of 4 different makes. See table below.

But, once again, the deadlines weren’t respected. On June 6th 1940, only 500 motorcycles had been delivered to the French forces (of which 220 in May. Industrial delays or caused by vessels running ashore? It is rumoured that one ship containing a cargo of 1.200 motorcycles had been sunk in the channel.) On June 9th, when all hope on a military recovery was lost, another 6.000 new motorcycles were ordered from the same four manufacturers (these motorcycles were to be delivered before the end of October, which meant 2.000 per month, from August onwards), plus BSAs (400 motorcycles per month, 500cc OHV). A pious wish…

Prospects for the delivery of British motorcycles:

Table with the February 18th 1940 orders:
...
Ariel: March:200 April: 400 May: 500 June: 500 July: 500 TOTAL: 2.100
...
Royal Enfield: March:100 April: 200 May: 200 June: 200 July: 200 TOTAL: 900
...

I know from my Royal Enfield WD models research that Enfield started building this French contract around (late) April 1940. Approximately 300 bikes were delivered before the fall of France in late May 1940. The motorcycles that were ready but that couldn't be delivered because of the Blitzkrieg were diverted to the British Army (contract C/7954).

Don't know about the Ariels though...

Jan

email (option): wd.register@gmail.com

Jan

Mar 14, 2012 - 11:02PM

Re: Ariel W/NG

Rolf S. Ask

Rik
Any idea how many bikes that was left at Dunkirk? And is there any pictures arround of british bikes in use by the german forces? We all know of the beutewagens they used...

Rolf

Hi Rolf,

According to Ellis' official history “The War in France & Flanders
1939 – 1940” 21.081 motorcycles were brought to France, 20.548 of these were lost...

Here are some "beute Ariels":

The third one is not a W/NG, but I think that the first and the second pictures could be W/NGs... Don't know if they were "impressed" BEF bikes or French contract bikes though...

Jan

email (option): wd.register@gmail.com

Rolf S. Ask

Mar 14, 2012 - 11:06PM

Re: Ariel W/NG

Jan
This is interesting! I for sure now know that I know almost nothing about the british bike history from WWII. Better start learning

Here is a picture of the engine of the XG31682 (the one I am collecting parts for) as it was when I started out, and a picture of try fitting parts after a while.
Rolf

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Rolf S. Ask

Mar 14, 2012 - 11:12PM

Re: Ariel W/NG

Jan
That is a huge loss for sure....
I really like the second picture using a german "auspuff" and sadle

Rolf

Jan

Mar 14, 2012 - 11:17PM

Re: Ariel W/NG

Das ist kein Ersatzauspuff Herr Ask! Das ist ein original ARIEL Teil!

If you send me your email address I'll send you some information!

Cheers,
Jan (great grandson of Isaac Larsen from Trondheim, Norway)

email (option): wd.register@gmail.com

Rolf S. Ask

Mar 14, 2012 - 11:24PM

Re: Ariel W/NG

what?? Am I wrong??? hmmmm... well, Jan the great grandson of Isaac Larsen from Trondheim, even the best need to be wrong from time to time

my e-mail adress is rolf( a t )hustegning.no

Rolf

jon

Mar 15, 2012 - 9:38PM

Re: Ariel W/NG

Interesting plaque on this machine indicating a former owner from the National 39/45 Military Vehicle Group.As the former membership secretary of this now defunct group it would be interesting to find the name of the former owner-I still have the membership lists and addresses from that era.As a group we toured most years from its creation in 1973 to most of the usual over the water sites-long before the current newcomers came into the scene.
regards Jon

Ian Wright

Mar 15, 2012 - 10:00PM

Re: Ariel W/NG

Hi Jon..Very interesting...What lead to the demise of the group?...or did it change into something else?...Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Jan

Mar 15, 2012 - 10:17PM

Re: Ariel W/NG

jon

It's in the article Jon: W. John Wheater was the former owner. He bought the bike in 1978, the plaque dates from 1981 and the article was published in 1982.

Jan

email (option): wd.register@gmail.com

Ron Pier

Mar 16, 2012 - 10:00AM

Re: Ariel W/NG

I applied to join that 39/45 club back in the 80's and never got a reply. Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Rolf S. Ask

Mar 16, 2012 - 11:10AM

Re: Ariel W/NG

Rick

It looks like the magazine has been removed from e-bay. At least that is the message I get when putting in the numbers...
Rolf

ahh... found it :)

jon

Mar 16, 2012 - 11:29PM

Re: Ariel W/NG

Hi
I have no John Wheater on the records but I have John Wheat from Loughborough way.The 39/45 MVG ran from about 1973 to 2000 with a max membership of some 200.Its demise was probably due to the recent (10 years or so)reenacting trend. As the group consisted largely of older members from its conception they resisted the influx of the younger -lets play war- element.As the older ones retired/died/gave up there was no new blood and so it folded.The group in its heyday was abound with british vehicles - most of which found there way to france/holland etc when sold up.The group organised many US airbase reunions for the veterans with the vehicles ferrying them about on the old airfields.The vehicle base was strictly wartime-no 5 year old landrovers here.

regards Jon

Rik

Mar 17, 2012 - 12:22AM

Re: Ariel W/NG

This is an early French contract machine in use mid-war by the Vichy-French forces. As the caption points out, the type was not officially adopted by the British until after June 1940.

There is anecdotal evidence of Ariels in use with the BEF but these would not have been NGs.

Andrew hemsley

Mar 17, 2012 - 11:07AM

Re: Ariel W/NG

jon

Jon, I believe I was a member for a while, as have some old paperwok in my files , andrew hemsley herne bay kent,

email (option): warbikes@gmail.com

Rolf Ask

Apr 15, 2012 - 8:57PM

Re: Ariel W/NG

it's too smoky and have a too high idle still, but some tlc on the carb and electrical I think it will be better. But it is very hard to start when warm... So all and any good input is most welcome

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqqNJHF7qU0&feature=youtu.be

Horror

Apr 15, 2012 - 11:46PM

Re: Ariel W/NG

It sounds like the condenser has gone in the magneto

email (option): horror@blueyonder.co.uk

Ian Wright

Apr 16, 2012 - 9:35AM

Re: Ariel W/NG

I would agree with Horror..If the spark looks good when tested cold but looks a weak white/yellow when the mag is warm, or disappears altogether, it is time for a magneto overhaul..Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Rolf

Apr 20, 2012 - 6:31PM

Re: Ariel W/NG

You might be very right.
So had a chat with a friend and he knows someone that he recomended to check out the magdyno for me. So guess the best thing to do is to have it properly maintained.
Here is a video from today:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UwYOmuX2CmM&feature=youtu.be