I was wondering whether there are any key cards for the other Military bike, particularly the G3WO which I am restoring? I know it was registered in 1947 so was demobbed pretty quickly after the way, but I would love to find out its correct number for the tank and any other information.

email (option): andrew.honychurch@btinternet.com

email (option): welbike@welbike.net

Wow! Alex, where did you get those from? So if I gave you the correct frame number when we e mailed a while back you have managed to work out the C number. To be sure , my frame number is 3419. On that basis does it cross reference back from your C number to my frame number, and if so do you have any more information please? Wow, thats very exciting stuff. All I need to discover now is that it was allocated to Prime Ministerial protection duties at Downing Street, and I will be well chuffed

edit: I see you NEED the postwar number to reference back. I will not be able to get that as the number plate is completely free of all paint. Anyway, when did postwar numbering come in? Would my bike have been demobbed before then?

email (option): andrew.honychurch@btinternet.com

Andrew/Lex, your G3 obviously came from the same serial number allocation as mine from contract C5247.
However my frame number is 3074 and Steve Madden has worked my serial number out to be C66663.
So roughly, your frame is about 500 after mine but Lex has worked your serial number out as about 500 before mine.....My brain hurts. Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

email (option): wd.register@gmail.com

quote Numbers were "married up" from early 1942 onwards, but I'm pretty sure that they were NOT "married up" during the early years of the war (and I have some examples to prove this theory).
unquote

I rather think that you have some oddities, that could be constructed in the (IMHO false) conclusion that vehicle census numbers were not in the same order as the chassis numbers. As a rule they were in line, but there may have been a few eceptions?
One pamphlet springs to mind listing some Austin census numbers that were not issued in the same order as the chassis numbers. In all the years of collecting, I only have found that pamphlet on mismatched censusnumbers to vehicle chassis numbers, I even found another one of that contract years after spotting the first one.

You can't have people going to do a job in a RAOC warehouse without having instructions. That would go for applying the censusnumbers on the appropiate places of a specific vehicle. I can't imagine that just a random number would be applied to a delivered vehicle, when more to that contarct would be coming in later in the week/month/year.
Having closely studied the Norton key cards, I have not find that any of the contract appearing there has such a anomaly.

Rob

email (option): rvanmeel@wanadoo.nl

Thanks Jan/Rob.
I don't know how Steve calculated the number? Maybe from the engine number 6091.
He told me I would be invited to his up coming wedding....maybe I'll ask him on the day. I'm sure that would please him.....not!
Anyway since I have just re-sprayed the tank with fresh stencils.....I'll leave it as is for now Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Ron Pier

...Anyway since I have just re-sprayed the tank with fresh stencils.....I'll leave it as is for now Ron

email (option): viaconsu # planet dot nl

Hans I've always thought it was called 'Times New Roman'
But there are hundreds of font names. The stencils were supplied by 'Axholm signs'. I simply sent them a picture of what was already there, with sizes, and they sent me identical stencils.
Axholm are a very friendly and helpful, farther and son outfit. Just send them a picture of my bike and ask them.
They will usually email you a sample font before cutting a stencil.

Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Ron Pier

...Anyway since I have just re-sprayed the tank with fresh stencils.....I'll leave it as is for now Ron

email (option): welbike@welbike.net

andrewH

Wow! Alex, where did you get those from? So if I gave you the correct frame number when we e mailed a while back you have managed to work out the C number. To be sure , my frame number is 3419. On that basis does it cross reference back from your C number to my frame number, and if so do you have any more information please? Wow, thats very exciting stuff. All I need to discover now is that it was allocated to Prime Ministerial protection duties at Downing Street, and I will be well chuffed

edit: I see you NEED the postwar number to reference back. I will not be able to get that as the number plate is completely free of all paint. Anyway, when did postwar numbering come in? Would my bike have been demobbed before then?

email (option): welbike@welbike.net

email (option): welbike@welbike.net

there you go Alex, now you will never be at a loss to find my numbers! even a bit of the original 1939/40 khaki paint which is quite a rich colour

email (option): andrew.honychurch@btinternet.com

Andrew, your engine number is also from same contract as the frame, so it could well be the original, if you buy the Orchard and Madden book, you can calculate if that is really so!

The colour is the KG No. 3 as all bikes were at that time (1940)

Cheers,

Lex

email (option): welbike@welbike.net

There seems to have been a clear intention to link the frame numbers of wartime produced machines to the census numbers but as Jan says, there is plenty of early evidence that it didn't always occur and it seems to have been less likely with those makes that didn't have matching engine and frame numbers.

The batch of census numbers C63586 - C80766 was used for two Matchless contracts - C5274 and C6094.

These were RASC contracts and they seem to have been a little less consistent than RAOC.

We have the anomally for instance that C65551 and C65553 were used for C5274 but C65552 was allocated to C6094 (presumably for Frame number 5000, but who knows ?)

If Frame 3419 left the factory with Engine 6485 then there clearly was no rigid link between engine and frame numbers as they are about fifty out of sequence if they were to 'match' each other?

My focus is mainly on Nortons and they changed to a new matching numbers sequence during 1939. However, their pre-war WD production does not seem to have had numbers linked to the census number.

A friend has Norton engine 67758 from contract C8245. Rather usefully, it is stamped with a census number - C361243. A look at the Norton ledgers shows that 67758 was delivered with frame number 63841 - which I'd have expected to be C361239 and C361243 should have been with frame 63845 but this had engine 67737 fitted so they were 'thereabouts' but it looks as if the numbers were issued upon arrival at the RASC depot. They would have been added to a ledger so as long as all frame numbers arrived and all census numbers were issued, there would have been no practical problems, just a lack of administrative tidiness.

The colour on the frame is indeed Khaki Green No.3 but due to the instability of the green compounds, it is no longer suitable for matching as it's too brown.

Hi Hans..Rons font is 'stencil font' or 'stencil bold font'...It's an American font introduced in 1937 so is of the right period but strictly speaking comes under the heading of 'artistic license' for this application.
But then I change the specification of things to suit my personal taste..stainless fasteners anyone? ...Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Here is an early war picture taken from 'British Military Markings' of a G3 which shows the style of stencil I have used. My bike is more or less depicted as this picture with the blank number plate and gas paint. Also a page from 'The British Solder' showing various types of font used.
Since three of the numbers experts can't agree on my serial number...I'm still going to leave it as it is Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Heres another one of the Khaki No3, but I am not sure why you say its not accurate enough to copy. It would seem very well preserved to me. Since the bike was painted black all over, probably when it came out of the military, in 1947, the khaki has been covered up from the elements for all that time. Anyway, it seems a pretty good chance this is the colour they should be at this period of the war.

email (option): andrew.honychurch@btinternet.com

Ron, are you trusting a FRENCH book???

I'm also not certain all the numbers were applied in sequence, when a bike was tested, and found wrong, it went back to rectify the fault, this would have given it a later census number I would think.

Anyway, the number I came up with is an exact calculation, but keep us posted what Steve Madden says!

Here a picture of an original Matchless Census number, they were always hand painted, no stencils used:



Andrew, the colour looks very glossy!! and a bit more brown than normal.



Her an easy recepy to make a sample, using Revell or Humbrol model kit paint tins:
KHAKI GREEN G3; 12 X R361 + 5 X R360 + 7 X R84. This is critical on proportions.

Cheers, lex

email (option): welbike@welbike.net

Well thats possibly as it was taken with a flash

here is one taken under natural light



I would imagine this is as original as it gets colour wise anyway

email (option): andrew.honychurch@btinternet.com

Lex, Hodges and Taylor are not French and their picture is original Given that they were all sign written! I guess it's reasonable to assume that some sign writers had more flare and artistry than others. For instance, the one you show looks like a trainees work.
Ron
Andrew, Lex will be over here at the end of Jan. We can get him then. Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

indeed we can!

email (option): andrew.honychurch@btinternet.com

Andrew, the problem with Khaki Green No.3 is that it was a new colour introduced in mid-1939 to replace the short lived dull version of the pre-war Bronze Green and the chromate compounds used to give the green colour proved to be unstable. Unfortunately, as well as being sensitive to light, the green pigment oxidised to a brownish colour on exposure to air.

If there are any parts on your bike which have not been exposed in any way, you may find a much greener colour. My Norton had the 'fresh' colour on the back of the brake drums where they had been clamped up to the hubs and also under some of the brackets.

KG No.3 is a pig of a colour to match and to mix (Lex will confirm). I'm fairly happy with the colour that I arrived at after visits and consultation with Mike Starmer who has made a lifetime's study out of British camouflage colours but the isocyanate-free 2-pack that I put on has proved to be useless.

I'm delaying repainting until I'm confident that I can match the colour and obtain some solvent resistance.

It's your bike, paint it what colour you like but if you want a 'factory-fresh' look then it does need to be greener.

I'm on the side of the sign-written census numbers by the way. I think that we sometimes forget how common the trade was seventy years ago. The original 1940 tanks that I've seen have all been sign written. Chilwell's house style differs markedly from Feltham's.

thanks Rik, I will check out other bits as I find them to see whether there is any difference between colours. I have not found a whole load of paint on the G3 though to be honest. When my father bought it in about 1976 it was pretty rough and he painted a coat of Red Oxide on it to try to save it from getting any worse. which it has probably achieved.

Rik, how do you find out about the colour being unstable, did you find original correspondence to that effect?

email (option): andrew.honychurch@btinternet.com

On the question of C numbers I have seen a WW2 of the BSA production line and the bikes are all coming down the line with their C numbers already on the tank. The only WW2 photo I have been able to find of the Matchless production line shows bikes without the C number on the tank. So perhaps Matchless had a sign writer in the storage shed who put the C numbers on after they came off the line. This would then suggest that they would not have been matched accurately with the frame number. Any thoughts? John

email (option): tinley@btinternet.com

sounds a possibility John. There are obviously quite a few opinions here , and most of them are from chaps with a lot of knowledge, it would be good to establish what the real story was. The key cards should give up this information even by looking at a selection of random entries? We should be able to work out from these whether there was a formula to the numbering. For what it is worth, I am sure that the numbering is formulaic and as these contracts were for a set number of machines commencing at a set frame number and finishing at another number the army numbering would reflect this. Imagine what a mess you could get into by once allowing this numbering to go astray for no good reason.

email (option): andrew.honychurch@btinternet.com

hi andrew it will be nice when it is all restored, i would like to get hold of a G3 for myself at the moment i have a G3L and a royal enfield c/o.
cheers michael

email (option): michael.rutland@homail.co.uk

thanks Michael, yes I am looking forward to the restoration myself. There is something quite appealing about the G3 . However, there is much to do and many parts to find.

email (option): andrew.honychurch@btinternet.com

I currently have the details of 66 surviving G3WO's on my database so if you want one they do come up from time to time. Keep looking and eventually one will come up.

Also you may be interested to know I have a database of about 80 surviving Matchless Model X's. One thing that has come out of this is that the engine numbers do not run in sequence with the frame numbers. I have therefore come to the conclusion that the man installing the engines in the frame simply went to a shelf and picked up the nearest one. I can only imagine the same applied during the war and they did not run in sequence. Therefore I find it hard to believe they bothered to match the C number with the frame number. Cheers John

email (option): Tinley@btinternet.com

I can understand them not being too bothered what engine goes in which frame, but the "C" number has to relate to something other than just a petrol tank. Otherwise how would they identify a bike for servicing or repair? Once the tank was taken off they wouldn't know what needed fixing on each bike which would get confusing in a workshop.

email (option): horror@blueyonder.co.uk

Andrew, I had an idea that the information on the chromate problem appeared in an article or book by Mike Starmer but I can't find it looking at what I have here. I have seen papers relating to it, I think at Mike's and it seems to have been a known problem. What I don't know is how long it took to change colour.

There are accounts of vehicles being sent to North Africa fading very quickly and hardly needing a coat of Light Stone. It may well be that it took months rather than years and then stabilised.

The BSA photo which shows bikes coming off the line with census numbers is a very late-war image and it seems that the practice changed as there are earlier photos showing bikes with no numbers. It would seem that initial practice was for them to be sign-written at the RAOC or RASC depot. Once again, the later the machine, the more likely it was to have been stencilled.

There are clear references in the marque histories to bikes going back down the line for rectification and being sent on later. It really wouldn't matter whether the depot had a list of frame numbers against which they entered census numbers in consecutive order or a list of census numbers against which they entered frame numbers as they arrived.

The procedure that John details of random matches between engine and frame is something that characterises most of the pre-war industry.

I don't think there is any doubt that later in the war, numbers were matched. From G3/L contract S1050 onwards, we even have the nice habit of using the last two digits from frame and census number but all the evidence from the early contracts with gaps in the census numbers used points to a less rigid correlation.

Contracts C5247 (Feltham) and C6094 (Olympia) are odd and they may well have been built alongside each other to a great extent - two locations each needing to receive their orders. There is no guarantee that frame no.5000 wasn't made before frame 2826.

Using the census numbers listed in O&M, we have C65551 logically belonging to frame 2810, C65552 on frame 5000, C65569 on frame 2826 and C65570 on frame 5001.

It seems to me that either O&M have their numbers wrong, there is a pattern that I can't see or the numbers were not rigidly linked to each other.

The early WM20 production has a similar problem and even though I have a copy of the factory records, I still can't see a logical sequence to how things occurred.

I think that all you can do is calculate on the basis that a consecutive order is the best option but be aware that unless a long-lost file turns up, you'll never know for sure. Rest assured though that there are a few nutcases looking for this information...

thanks Rik. Its all intriguing stuff indeed. I started to sand down what is left of the paint on my tank yesterday but cannot see a white number. I think that when it was civilianised and painted black it would appear that they have sanded back any numbers to give a good finish, although they have left the khaki underneath. I will try a bit more and see whether I can pick up anything at all. If any further information comes up I will of course report in. I guess one other potential source would be disposal records from the immediate post war period but whether they exist or who has them is another matter altogether!

email (option): andrew.honychurch@btinternet.com

O&M is the most comprehensive guide there is for military machines but, understandably, this contains errors. so should not be taken 'as gospel'.
Triumph 5SWs are all listed as having a 'W' in the engine number..I had 3 WD engines pass through my hands and looked at a few other 5SWs during the restoration of my own and have yet to see an engine marked with the 'W'..they are just marked 5S.
Also, the WB30 production and pre production machines are not described correctly re the photos.
This is not to imply criticism..it is merely an observation. The chances of getting all the information and getting it all 100% correct in such a reference work must be nigh on impossible. However, alternative verification of the information is best sought in individual cases to verify absolutely that it is correct...Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Likewise I think C11 and C12 frames were all prefixed C10. But IMHO no one has done a finer job.
It's a shame Steve hasn't joined in the debate on G3 serial numbers. Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

I mentioned O&M because most of us here have access to a set of their data. There is no doubt that the book is based on official sources and that it was checked and double checked. There aren't many (any ?) real howlers that I've found in terms of WD records

Additional sources are limited on C5247 and C6094 as a result of their being RASC contracts. The surviving RAOC data only reflects their taking over responsibility for supplying spares for the vehicles after the formation of REME and transferring all parts to Ordnance.

However, it is clear also from their records that the census numbers somehow became mixed up between the two contracts. We can propose all sorts of possible or probable scenarios but to my mind there is just too great an element of doubt to be certain.

Andrew, in terms of searching for your census number, it may well be that the dealer replaced a damaged original tank with a nice new one to tidy the machine up for sale. Even if you find a number, it may not be the original tank.

Do look at both sides of the tank though (especially the left) and watch out for multiple layers. Seeing a number or marking slowly appearing is one of the nicest feelings in WD bike restoration !

I've never had that pleasure unfortunately..Most of the time I have started with basket cases which had lost any markings long before I got them...and my Pride & Clarke M20 which was in perfect condition had been stripped to bare metal during the P&C refurbishment.
I've never even had an original contract plate on a bike..though I did get the post war plate with the P&C bike...just luck of the draw I suppose.. ...Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

email (option): wd.register@gmail.com

email (option): welbike@welbike.net