I was looking for some quick advice please. I have been rebuilding my 1944 BSA M20 and came to the point where it is time to repaint it. However, found out the frame is probably a restamp where the engine is a wm20 model. Would you recommend just leaving it be since it is registered with the restamp number, or buy a wd frame and switch everything over. Otherwise the bike is pretty complete.

Thanks for the help.

https://picasaweb.google.com/115674442219018009194/BsaFrameNumbers?authuser=0&feat=directlink

email (option): jeff@infinitymedspa.com

Hi Jeff,
If the frame is a WM20 frame then I'd just learn to live with the restamped numbers especially if it's currently registered with this number. If you'r not sure if the frame is WM20 post up some more photos of the frame and someone should be able to help.

A difficult question to answer, there are lots of military M20 frames in existance but they seldom appear on the market, which makes them quite expensive when they do.

But firstly you need to establish what you have.

Rob.

email (option): robmiller11@yahoo.co.uk

Hey Jeff, if its a WD frame and you have the V5 leave well alone. Mike Rutland went through months of serious aggravation when he changed the frame on his G3L. They also wanted him to scrap the old frame!
Cheers, Mick.

email (option): mick@motorbikemike.org.uk

Excellent advice. I will post some pics shorthly. Anything I should be looking at that will tell me if is an wm20 frame?

email (option): jeff@infinitymedspa.com

Hi Jeff, Apart from a few sidecar contracts the WD frame did not have any sidecar lugs 'built in'. The rear section of the frame on the ones that did, had only a single lug on one side. Rear frames with two lugs (one on each side) were post war replacements. Early rear frame sections did not have pillion footrest mountings and had a lug brazed to the frame tube, a few inches below the saddle spring mount, to take the field stand. Later versions had the footrest mounts but no field stand lug...the stand was clamped to the frame on later examples...Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

The most early rear frames seemed to also had the field stand lug clamped to the frame. Here a photo of quite a late / early bike. You can clearly see the bolt from the field stand lug. It's a mystery to me from what frame numbers these lugs were brazed on but clearly later then this frame number.

Henk

email (option): ahum@quicknet.nl

Hi Henk..I see that one has no footrest lugs...Perhaps the brazed on field stand lug goes with early frames but after the footrest lugs were added....Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Nope! It's not that Ian. My early frame has the brazed on field stand lug, but no brazed on foot pegs. Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

My frame (42594) had both brazed on side stand and footrest lugs.
Cheers, Mick

email (option): mick@motorbikemike.org.uk

But is it the original rear frame for your front frame?

I have the same rear frame you have Mick but I know it's not original for my front frame. I also think that pillion footrest lugs are added to some frame later. I know pretty sure mine are added to the frame later.

I am pretty sure that BSA would never put the pillion footrest in this location from new as in this photo.

We'll never know for sure it seems.

Henk

email (option): ahum@quicknet.nl

As far as I can tell both parts of the frame were always together. It was sold off by the RAF in 1947 and purchased by a farmer in Sutton Bridge. When the mag gave up it was dumped in a shed until I dud it out and purchased it from the son. Of course the RAF could have swapped the rear frame.
Cheers, Mick.

email (option): mick@motorbikemike.org.uk

yes like mick holmes said i had loads of trouble with DVLA and keep well clear of getting them involved.
cheers michael rutland

email (option): michael.rutland@homail.co.uk

Thanks guys sounds like it is more trouble than it's worth

email (option): Jeff@infinitymedspa.com

Hi Jeff, If you find out that your frame isn't a WD frame and you do find another. The best way to change it over is to build the bike on the "new" frame and get it register with an age related plate. Then you have your old frame with a logbook. Unless you really want to keep your reg number, then the only option is to stamp your "new" frame with your existing number.

If your frame is a WD frame, I would get someone with the correct stamps to weld and re-stamp the frame so it looks as it should. Never tell DVLA you're changing your frame, as the reg number goes with the frame. You could even be unlucky enough to get a "Q" plate as they could decide the bike is now a "bitsa".

First though, you need to know if it is a WD frame, some more pictures will help the experts

email (option): horror@blueyonder.co.uk

I have the impression that Jeff is in the United States ? References to the DVLA will probably be causing no end of confusion ! That said, I believe that vehicles without 'title' are a problem in the US too.

Reading this and the earlier thread relating to the 'Key Cards', there are a couple of points which come to mind.

Jeff, are you intending to rebuild to military trim and if so, what degree of accuracy are you aiming for ? What I'm getting at is whether you're going to be moving in 'rivet-counter' circles and, if you are, is it going to bother you if not quite everything is as it left the factory ?

The bike appears to have a degree of custom finish (polished crankcases etc) so has presumably been quite heavily worked on in other areas ?

I'm not too well informed on BSA stamping practices but their stamps always look a little chaotic to me. That said, your frame number has clearly been 'got at' and the extra number looks to be in a smaller type and might even be left over from an earlier stamping. It looks to me as if the intention was WM20 104784.

I've tried to look closer at the engine number but can't work out how to enlarge the picasa images. I'm inclined to agree though that the extra '1' on the end might well be a second try.

Perhaps Rob could try to find these slightly altered numbers in the 'Key Cards' to see if a combination of engine and frame numbers like these appear ?

Many of these US machines have retained traces of their post-war service. Did the bike come to you with any old rear number plates or a rebuild plate in either tool box or on engine cover ?

You asked on the earlier thread if numbers were re-stamped during wartime. There doesn't seem to be any substantial evidence for this - they weren't too worried about the numbers. However, vehicles were sometimes 'lost' and 'found' or 'borrowed' and I would never rule out that no number was ever adulterated. There seems to be a little more evidence for over stamping post-war, perhaps to make the vehicles that were present fit with the official records.

In the UK and Europe, it is quite common to find numbers altered to match documents but these are bikes that were used on a budget through the 1950s and 1960s and second-hand spares were commonplace. I'd have thought it less likely to have occurred in the US with bikes that arrived during the 1970s, and even more so because the WM20 prefixes were re-used.

My biggest worry with your frame numbers is that they might not stand up to scrutiny at a roadside check or from an insurance assessor if the worst should occur.

As things stand, you have too many ciphers to be able to refer any authorities to a list of WM20 numbers.

email (option): robmiller11@yahoo.co.uk

It was just an idea Rob, but the US ex-BAOR bikes don't turn up very often in the cards, do they ?

This is the engine number -



and this is the clearest of the frame number :-



Perhaps too much to hope for that something close or likely appeared in the lists.

Thanks Rik

Can't see anyhing that matches though.

Rob.

email (option): robmiller11@yahoo.co.uk

Thanks again for all the hard work guys

email (option): Jeff@infinitymedspa.com

Hi Jeff, Is that bike painted dark blue with a lot of the parts chrome plated?...Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Henk mentions... "But is it the original rear frame for your front frame?"

Is it possible to find out if the front part of the frame matches the rear part of frame by checking the factory part numbers? If those two part numbers match to the parts book then this would be an original matching frame yes?

yes Ian it is painted dark blue with a lot of the chrome plated? Why

email (option): jeff@infininitymedspa.com

Just enjoy the bike for what it is & you can't change its history only disguise it & there's no need. If someone points at something that's not "correct" just agree with them :-)

Hi Jeff...It caught my eye because it is exactly the colour of an M20 that was offered to me in England a few years back. It had come from India and had a lot of chrome plated parts, including the black out mask, field stand etc. etc. I was wondering if it was the same bike...Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Hi Ian

It sounds similar but I bought it in the U.S In California. Any way to tell

email (option): jeff@infinitymedspa.com

Hi Jeff..I've got a good memory for these things..just a photo of the complete bike would do it...Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com