I unwrapped a couple of NOS clutch operating arms from their original packing today and was surprised to find they were unplated and just in the base metal finish.
The early wartime parts list I have with the 'finish codes' included shows a cadmium plated finish...and NOS examples I have had previously were in that finish.
This would seem to indicate that at some point the plating process was dispensed with...but when?..Does anyone have any information on this? It would be interesting to know if other parts were also the same.
So for absolute originality it would appear that beyond a certain date?.. an unplated (and soon to be rusty) clutch operating arm would be entirely correct.
....Ian
There are a few possible reasons.
1. It was a mistake and the plating was left off.
2. You were supposed to paint it to match the bike when you opened it.
C. It was destined for North Africa where its dry.
Rob
email (option): robmiller11@yahoo.co.uk
Hi Rob,
1)Possible..but I doubt they would have passed through the inspection process successfully..
2)Seems unlikely...Spare parts were supplied in a painted finish when appropriate and numerous examples exist.
3)Now your moving into the realms of fantasy!
...Ian
The expression 'War Finish' is sometimes seen on oil-blacked tools but I've never been aware of it on vehicle components. In fact, late contract cards always state 'Machines to be made suitable for the Tropics'. As far as I'm aware, they have monsoons there.
Could it be a post-war spare ? Most of the NOS that we find is. The Korean war produced a nickel shortage. Did it also cause a lack of cadmium ?
The other explanation is that it came from Russell Motors and they carefully unwrapped the parts, blasted off the old cosmoline-corroded cadmium and re-packed them
The M20 has a few 'Chemically blacked' fasteners as standard and I have had NOS girder fork side damper springs in that finish. The NOS Triumph girder fork spindles I bought were also 'blacked'. Generally though, it doesn't seem to have been used that much.
I wouldn't think the Korean war produced shortages on as large a scale as WW2 though how that applied to a range of specific materials such as cadmium I have no idea. The parts in question didn't come from Russell motors and were still completely embalmed in their original packing, to the extent it was a struggle to unwrap them...and I understood many wartime parts were repacked in the Fifties...is that the case?...Ian
Korea was/is not an important producer of either Chromium or Nickel..60% of the worlds production of nickel goes into the manufacture of hardened steels of various types and it is an important element in the manufacture of armour plate.
WW2 shortages were still unresolved at the beginning of the Korean war and the increased demand for military equipment at this time made the situation worse.
Chromium was not in particularly short supply apparently...only the nickel that was used as part of the plating process...Funny that...the Indians seem to manage without it for thier chrome plating
...Ian
hi,just been looking on practical machinists web pages,this has also puzzled me over time,quite a few machine tools have plates attached with war finish on them,
the exception being ''churchill machine tools co manchester''
the plate on their machines reads something to thewording
''this machine tool is painted in accordance with war finish,
workmanship and accuracy are standard'',heres a pic i pinched off the practical site if it works,
Go Back Practical Machinist - Largest Manufacturing Technology Forum on the Web > Open Discussion > Antique Machinery and History
Reload this Page OT- What is "War Finish" on WWII era machine tools?
User Name Remember Me?
Password
Register FAQ Calendar Search Today's Posts
Antique Machinery and History Discuss antique machinery and the history of machine types and their manufacturers
Reply
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
#1 (permalink)
Old 05-12-2010, 09:37 AM
X-Y-Z X-Y-Z is offline
Aluminum
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: NEW HAMPSHIRE
Posts: 138
Default OT- What is "War Finish" on WWII era machine tools?
I have seen "War Finish" tags on older machine tools, from the WWII era...What does this mean?
(YES, I have searched here, and Google, but I can't find anything about it.)
Just curious.
0
Reply With Quote
#2 (permalink)
Old 05-12-2010, 09:41 AM
grandtools grandtools is offline
Banned
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Pittsburgh Pa USA
Posts: 1,145
Default
They didn't use the same painting process as pre-war (and post-war) machines had. In short, the finish was not the same, not filled and sanded, just painted. Some companies used a sort of spatter finish on the machines.
Reply With Quote
#3 (permalink)
Old 05-12-2010, 09:48 AM
johnoder's Avatar
johnoder johnoder is offline
Diamond
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Houston, TX USA
Posts: 15,555
Default
The responsible party - back when the Government had people in its employ that actually knew how to get something done.
War Production Board - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Equally impressive - USRA in WW1
http://files.asme.org/ASMEORG/Commun...marks/5493.pdf
John Oder
Reply With Quote
#4 (permalink)
Old 05-12-2010, 02:50 PM
surplusjohn surplusjohn is offline
Diamond
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Syracuse, NY USA
Posts: 8,380
Default
it was my understanding that the lower standards were applied to all non-essential details also. Faster painting, no extra grinding, just get-r-done
Reply With Quote
#5 (permalink)
Old 05-12-2010, 04:11 PM
Bill D Bill D is offline
Stainless
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Modesto, CA USA
Posts: 1,786
Default
I think it also means no plating and no extra buffing/polishing. The head of a bridgeport would be as cast al maybe sanded smooth not polished. I suppose it might be something instead of Al like cast iron?
Bill D.
Reply With Quote
#6 (permalink)
Old 05-12-2010, 05:13 PM
Canoester Canoester is offline
Aluminum
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: KY
Posts: 142
Default War Finish
I used to operate a Blanchard grinder in a shop back in the early 80's on second shift. During the day the riggers moved in a massive Kearney Trecker horizontal mill. From where I stood in front of the Blanchard I could read the large letters of the War Finish plaque cast in the side of the mill. I thought Wow.... That machine goes all the way back to the Vietnam war...I got a laugh later that evening when I saw the 1940's date in the small lettering on the casting.
Reply With Quote
#7 (permalink)
Old 05-12-2010, 05:27 PM
DocsMachine DocsMachine is offline
Stainless
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Southcentral, AK
Posts: 1,121
Default
As above, the War Finish essentially meant that little or no extra time was 'wasted' on frivolous things like polished surfaces, extra fill and sanding on painted castings, etc.
And it's my understanding that many companies put "war finish" tags on the machines, not out of any kind of requirement, but to essentially say "our machines aren't usually this rough".
Doc.
Reply With Quote
#8 (permalink)
Old 05-12-2010, 05:52 PM
Mebfab Mebfab is offline
Diamond
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Mebane North Carolina USA
Posts: 4,030
Default
All non-essential parts that would normally be aluminum or brass where cast iron if at all possible. Example 10EE covers.
__________________
www.mebfab.com
Reply With Quote
#9 (permalink)
Old 05-12-2010, 06:12 PM
Laurentian's Avatar
Laurentian Laurentian is offline
Hot Rolled
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 501
Default
We used to have a Gorton 3-Z 2D panto and a 727 roll att. to go with it. Both had charcoal grey wrinkle finish.
I think our Clarke rockwell tester is war finish also, same
wrinke finish and a bomber on the nameplate.
Hugh
Reply With Quote
#10 (permalink)
Old 05-12-2010, 06:19 PM
Ox's Avatar
Ox Ox is offline
Diamond
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: West Unity, Ohio
Posts: 12,750
Default
Funny - I have owned "War Finish" machines for yrs and didn't know what it meant.
I have some columns off of an older Kingsbury that when we had them sand-blasted during a re-tool, that we found some pretty large holes in them. (mostly on the back side)
Had one of my guys that had some experience with Bondo "fix" those holes.
100hp blaster takes'm down to metal pritty _ quickly...
I don't know if those columns were built during the war specifically, but I know that this machines "last" re-tool had been in the 50's per Saline Tool. So I would guess that it was new for war production?
If so tho - it must have been a later war machine. I have a nother 80" Kingsbury that has a war tag on it that is a leg base - as opposed to a "G" base. (solid - no legs) However - those columns are now on the other base.
I figger'd that the pour time was kept as short as possible to keep'm moving through. ???
I have a (some?) War Finish Acme's that I haven't ever seen anything different about. But then - I haven't had them sandblasted either.
Other than those casting porrosities - I never saw anything diff abot WAR machines. But then - there's not much alum in a Kingsbury or an Acme either. And Shirley no pollished sheetmetal!
--------------
Think Snow Eh!
Ox
Reply With Quote
#11 (permalink)
Old 05-12-2010, 07:07 PM
Andrew_D Andrew_D is offline
Cast Iron
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Manitoba, Canada
Posts: 353
Default
My McDougall Lathe has "War Finish" cast into the front of the headstock. I'll agree the finish isn't "show-room", but I think it's more due to the crappy after-market paint job. As mentioned, there are a few holes in some of the castings though...maybe it is from trying to speed up the process??
Andrew
Reply With Quote
#12 (permalink)
Old 05-12-2010, 07:40 PM
windmillman's Avatar
windmillman windmillman is offline
Aluminum
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Wuhan (Central) China
Posts: 92
Default War Machines
I have had quite a few WWII machines, more than I can count. Some, like a 2" Cleveland single spindle automatic bar machine showed no sign of use at all and came with a full set of cosmolined tooling, a War Finish tag similar to that shown below and a standard commercial industrial painted finish that was beige. Many of these machines were painted green - slightly dark green. I have a study from the US War Production Board published during the war that states that "machines painted green were easy on the eye and tended to reduce eye fatigue and operator error." I'm not sure how they came to that conclusion, but several shops I have worked in that were leftovers from the war had nearly all the original machines painted green. One shop was originally built as a Navy training shop during WWI and had all the original machinery run from 4 long overhead shafts and flat leather belts run to every machine. The entire shop was run by one 50hp Crocker Wheeler electric motor in a back room with a big knife switch on the wall behind it. This Navy training facility became Van Nuys High School, where this shop was located. All the machines, were green.
I have attached a photo of a War Finish tag on a Van Norman duel vertical / horizontal mill that I purchased at an auction at Pearl Harbor in 1985. This machine was originally painted green and is still in daily use producing parts for water pumping windmills in my factory. It is dated 1942 and has the navy acceptance stamp on it. It is 68 years old, has been well maintained and is still in very good condition. I wouldn't dream of replacing it.
Tom
Reply With Quote
#13 (permalink)
Old 05-12-2010, 07:45 PM
Mebfab Mebfab is offline
Diamond
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Mebane North Carolina USA
Posts: 4,030
Default
I get the warm fuzzies everytime I see a van norman tag.
__________________
www.mebfab.com
Reply With Quote
#14 (permalink)
Old 05-13-2010, 05:25 PM
metlmunchr metlmunchr is offline
Diamond
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Asheville NC USA
Posts: 7,050
Default
I've got 2 Monarch lathes that were made for Southern Railroad in Sept and Oct of 1945. While they don't have war production board tags on them, they do both have the orange paint on the shift levers and handwheels, and absolutely zero fill anywhere on the castings.
Southern's locomotives were always painted a dark green, and it appears they had Monarch put a similar color on the lathes. No primer or anything like that. Just cast iron with (whats left of) green paint. Given the amount of paint that's not there, its obvious Monarch didn't immediately get out of war finish mode the moment the war ended. Good shape though, due to zero use from the mid-50's until I bought them from the RR in the mid-90's, but two of the ugliest damn things you ever saw.
Reply With Quote
#15 (permalink)
Old 05-13-2010, 07:36 PM
ramsay1's Avatar
ramsay1 ramsay1 is offline
Cast Iron
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: port allen, louisiana usa
Posts: 447
Talking War Production Board
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill D View Post
I think it also means no plating and no extra buffing/polishing. The head of a bridgeport would be as cast al maybe sanded smooth not polished. I suppose it might be something instead of Al like cast iron?
Bill D.
Kearney and Trecker bulletin #662c midgetmill and speedmill....By order of the War Production Board, the use of aluminum in the manufacture of these attachments has been discontinued..
My Midgetmill is aluminum but the numbers indicate that it was made after ww2 ..
Mike
Reply With Quote
#16 (permalink)
Old 05-13-2010, 08:01 PM
Gewehr 98's Avatar
Gewehr 98 Gewehr 98 is offline
Aluminum
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Cinci.O
Posts: 179
Default
'War finish' was also used on firearms. Strangely enough, I have seen several British arms so marked, but never anything from the US....
Reply With Quote
cheers rick
email (option): richardholt@rocketmail.com
Hi Robb..Warner Swasey...that's a name from my past...the first lathe I ever used with an air operated chuck back in 1970, when I was doing my apprenticeship with Brown and Sharpe...another well known name!....Ian
hi ian,pointed shit,did you get fixed up with your crank journal?ive searched far and wide but cant find one,however if you want any other bits i've a list here ,pistons, crankpins etc
if you want it i'll post it for you.cheers rick
Interesting..I'd like to know more about that..(from a purely academic point of view!)..The clutch arms have gone in the box with next batch of plating.. ....Ian
Hi Hans..Cheaper than plating I guess...so it is an 'economy' finish...Ian
Interesting how this thread went from M20s to lathes. I'd guess that a lathe is even harder to pull on the rear stand than an M20 with laden panniers ?
(Better round the corners though !)
The most useful bit of kit when touring on an M20 is the excellent field stand...or if you use the rear stand, a field hospital and REME workshop ...Ian
...Ian What's an 'excellent field stand' ?
The only good one that Nortons made was sidecar-wheel drive !