Questions? Looking for parts? Parts for sale? or just for a chat,

The WD Motorcycle forum

WD Motorcycle forum
Start a New Topic 
Author
Comment
BSA WM20 restoration project

Hello there,

Some of you might remember me from about 6 months ago when i had a lot of questions. After that it went silent for a while, work, holiday etc. Till today The before yesterday is was doing my daily "search for a BSA WM20" again and i found one here in Holland. Looked ok, had most aparts, was green, from 1941 or 42. No papers, no history. Ah well. i called the and the next day went to have a look. This was the result:



What did I buy? A BSA WM20. Finally. Status. Not running. Some parts missing. All original? Dunno. You will probably tell me A project. That's how i like em now the photo's





Frame number WM20 70201
Engine number WM20 72347 (i think)

email (option): kschaank@hotmail.com

Re: BSA WM20 restoration project

And then some detailed photo's :)

Engine: Cilinderhead has some broken fins. ah well :) It kicks over, does the sucking of air etc. Will do a compression test this week to get the first clues.




Gearbox:

It works, but the kicker doesn't come back and rattles a bit when you help it back. prolly need to have a look at this. Also there is something wrong with the clutch pin as it is all the way in.



Some other parts:



I'm missing 1 part of the front end which makes it all a bit unstable. Also need to find some detailed drawwings of all this as i have some questions of the mounting of the spring :)



made in England :P

email (option): kschaank@hotmail.com

Re: BSA WM20 restoration project

Sooo what's the plan. To make this old lady run again :) Which will mean that making it run and safe to ride if prority number 1. Making it original will be number 2. I don't even know much about the bike anyway but i am sure you guys can help out with the original parts or not question. She looks in good shape. Not a lot of rust. Looks a bit like an older restauration project. The guy i got it from trade it with something else and that guy got it from his granddad who kicked the bucket. Maybe you guys know a bit more about the histry of the bike and in what colors it should be :) Anyway i will keep you guys posted about my progress and i'm sure i'll bug you guys with questions if i run into challenges

email (option): kschaank@hotmail.com

Re: BSA WM20 restoration project

Certainly plenty to do there.

The carb and fuel tap rather suggest some time spent in the Far East so best not to take anything for granted. You're probably going to find quite a bit of wear inside.

Re: BSA WM20 restoration project

Rik
Certainly plenty to do there.

The carb and fuel tap rather suggest some time spent in the Far East so best not to take anything for granted. You're probably going to find quite a bit of wear inside.


how can you tell about the carb, fuel tap thing? I kinda had the feeling i might have seen this one before but i don't really care. These birds need love too :P I don't mind to much about redoing the inside either, just means it will take a bit longer :) Also, like i said before, it does look restored at one point, with some luck the restoring was done here in europe :P

But if that's true i might have to paint it sand colors :P Any idea where i might find data about where they were sent to in the war?

email (option): kschaank@hotmail.com

Re: BSA WM20 restoration project

I can't be certain about the carb but the fact that I don't recognise it, or the manufacturer of the fuel tap suggest to me that they're probably not European and for some reason, they love to change them in some other parts of the world. It's one of those 'trademark' things.

Your bike would probably have been produced in the latter part of 1942 which suggest that it left the factory painted in SCC NO.2 Brown but they may still have been using up stocks of Khaki Green No.3

'sand' colours would only have been applied in theatre and mainly for North Africa.

Sadly, there is no known surviving documentation to indicate where bikes were issued.

Re: BSA WM20 restoration project

Hi Koen, according to Messrs. Madden and Orchard your frame is from contract C12424 for 8000 bikes, the engine and frame numbers (matching) ran from 63448 to 71447. The WD numbers were C4699545 to C4707544.Late 1941
Your engine is from contract C13290 for 10,000 bikes, E+F numbers 71818 to 81817.WD numbers 4752401 to 4757400 and 4860801 to 4865800. Early 1942.
The carb looks like a Bing or Delorto part, the dynamo is an E3AR originally fitted to AJS/ Matchless singles.
Ian Wright often has the correct units for sale.
Good luck, keep us posted.
Cheers, Mick.

email (option): mick@motorbikemike.org.uk

Re: BSA WM20 restoration project

Carb and fuel tap look like what they used commonly in Egypt.

email (option): unpob@yahoo.com

Re: BSA WM20 restoration project

henri
Carb and fuel tap look like what they used commonly in Egypt.


Haha, i might have seen this 1 before indeed. Ah well. Ok, so i'll have to look for a orginal carb and dynamo. And a tail light, and a bracket for the front fork and so much more. THe fun is going to start :)

email (option): kschaank@hotmail.com

Re: BSA WM20 restoration project

Btw, are there any Dutchies willing to show me their bike? I would like to hear, see and smell it so i have an idea of what it should sound like when i going to start mine.

email (option): kschaank@hotmail.com

Re: BSA WM20 restoration project

You can see mine in all her disassembled glory, making her ready for mothballing...

email (option): viaconsu # planet dot nl

Re: BSA WM20 restoration project

Hi Koen,

I live near Haarlem and you can have a look at my bikes if you want.

Henk.

email (option): ahum@quicknet.nl

Re: BSA WM20 restoration project

Ah thx. I live in Rotterdam so that's not too far. Soonest i can is mid December. Have to go to Texas for work next couple of weeks.

email (option): kschaank@hotmail.com

Re: BSA WM20 restoration project

carb and fuel tap looks like Jikov (used on Jawa and CZ)to me.

Re: BSA WM20 restoration project

I'll have a look when i get back home :P

Thx for all the inputs btw :) Tomorrow i'll get a compresion meter so i can see what the status of the chamber is. If it has been eating sand for a long time i expect i won't make the compression ration of 4.9 but then again, i might be lucky and find a restored engine :P

About the dynamo, what is different compared to an original one?

email (option): kschaank@hotmail.com

Re: BSA WM20 restoration project

on the front page before you click on forum, there is a page of resources which includes a downloadable manual, its worth printing,and also a number of usefull articles, have a look through the pictures page which will give an indication of variety of finishes and fittings, if you go to see henk im sure he will have some spare parts you may find usefull, with the engine a strip down to look at condition is part of the restoration process, all sorts of things end up in them while they are standing around, i once found grain and oversized snails in one, good luck with project it is worth it when its running

Re: BSA WM20 restoration project

You'd better use a leakdown tester; for a normal compression test you have to kick-start several times, and if sand is in the innards, you'll regret it.. DAMHIK
You can make one yourself, see the Technical page, or borrow mine

email (option): viaconsu # planet dot nl

Re: BSA WM20 restoration project

Hans, maybe a good idea to do a leakoff test instead of compression. I also like the fact that you are better capable of hearing where it leaks too.

One other question. I seem to be missing some parts of the front fork, now i have downloaded and printed the manual from the website, but are there any exploded views available of the front end? (or entire bike). Makes it easier to detect what i am missing :)

email (option): kschaank@hotmail.com

Re: BSA WM20 restoration project

ask henk for one of his CDs

email (option): roger.beck@node.com

Re: BSA WM20 restoration project

Mick Holmes
Hi Koen, according to Messrs. Madden and Orchard your frame is from contract C12424 for 8000 bikes, the engine and frame numbers (matching) ran from 63448 to 71447. The WD numbers were C4699545 to C4707544.Late 1941
Your engine is from contract C13290 for 10,000 bikes, E+F numbers 71818 to 81817.WD numbers 4752401 to 4757400 and 4860801 to 4865800. Early 1942.
The carb looks like a Bing or Delorto part, the dynamo is an E3AR originally fitted to AJS/ Matchless singles.
Ian Wright often has the correct units for sale.
Good luck, keep us posted.
Cheers, Mick.


Hey Mick, can you also tell where that contract was sent to? maybe that way i know a little more of what it would have looked like :)

email (option): kschaank@hotmail.com

Re: BSA WM20 restoration project

Hi Koen, I am also just commencing my first build of an M20, it would appear mine is 1942/3 era. It's still in desert colours as per previous message on forum and will get colour coding from a local paint shop by using a sample of the tin ware. Ron and Ian's bike look fantastic so if you want another colour to compare I can send a photo of mine as I dont know how to up load onto the forum, an age thing I guess!
Anyway, nice to know there's another project underway.
Pete

email (option): cruaser@aol.com

Re: BSA WM20 restoration project

Hallo Pete,

Nice to see i'm not the only one here bringing old birds back alive. Maybe you can send it to my via my email :)

email (option): kschaank@hotmail.com

Re: BSA WM20 restoration project

Good luck with this resto project Koen. I live in Netherlands...if you need any help. My bike is also on the visitors page.

Many M20's in Holland....many WD bikes anyway

Good luck. Jacco

email (option): vansnippenberg@yahoo.com

Re: BSA WM20 restoration project

Hi Koen, unfortunatley its nearly impossible to find where these bikes were sent to. If you can find any markings it can help. Sometimes the "key cards" can tell you where they ended up. I was lucky, my M20 is known to have come from RAF Sutton Bridge. I purchased it from the farmer who owns the land the base was on.
Cheers, Mick.

email (option): mick@motorbikemike.org.uk

Re: BSA WM20 restoration project

Mick Holmes
Hi Koen, unfortunatley its nearly impossible to find where these bikes were sent to. If you can find any markings it can help. Sometimes the "key cards" can tell you where they ended up. I was lucky, my M20 is known to have come from RAF Sutton Bridge. I purchased it from the farmer who owns the land the base was on.
Cheers, Mick.


I see. But do you know to which war department the order was given from. If it was, for example, to the navy painting your bike green would be wrong as i assume it would probably have to be blue right?

Btw, thx guys for all the emails with very usefull info. Bought the dvd with BSA info from Henk, got very usefull info from Rick about the difference in griderfork links, turned you left and right are not the same. This I will have to double check now before finding a "new" one. Pete showed me his bike, (Pete, this weekend i'll make you a little manual on how to post photo's on the internet)

email (option): kschaank@hotmail.com

Re: BSA WM20 restoration project

Just got Henk his DVD in the mail, thx Henk! I actually found a bike from the same order in it. C4702833 (mine is C4706298 if i'm not mistaken). i don't know if all 8000 bikes went to the same division (or area) but it might be a clue of where my old darling was sent to :)

An even bigger surprise was that there also is an spare part book for my contract number on the DVD! Too bad the prices are not the same any more

email (option): kschaank@hotmail.com

Re: BSA WM20 restoration project

That's very true koen :-D

Job

email (option): Jonnyob1@googlemail.com

Re: BSA WM20 restoration project

Koen, the completed machines under pretty well all M20 contracts were deliverd to RAOC (Royal Army Ordnance Corps) at their main vehicle depot, Chilwell Nottinghamshire.

From there they were sent to wherever they were needed, either as replacements or for units being newly formed.

Although it's possible to say roughly from the date where they may have been likely to go, it's clear from photographic evidence that bikes from the same row could go anywhere. I've seen Norton contracts where examples have been photographed as far apart as the UK, North Africa, Malta and Iceland.

Machines were sent consistently to the Far East (via India), particularly later in the war.

Have you identified the make of carburetter yet ? That may give a clue as to where it came back from.

Re: BSA WM20 restoration project

Rik
Koen, the completed machines under pretty well all M20 contracts were deliverd to RAOC (Royal Army Ordnance Corps) at their main vehicle depot, Chilwell Nottinghamshire.

From there they were sent to wherever they were needed, either as replacements or for units being newly formed.

Although it's possible to say roughly from the date where they may have been likely to go, it's clear from photographic evidence that bikes from the same row could go anywhere. I've seen Norton contracts where examples have been photographed as far apart as the UK, North Africa, Malta and Iceland.

Machines were sent consistently to the Far East (via India), particularly later in the war.

Have you identified the make of carburetter yet ? That may give a clue as to where it came back from.


I see. No i haven't been to the garage yet. it's very tempting to cycle over now, but i'll do it tomorrow I'll make a list of every number i can find on it. i'll take some detailed photo's too. Anything you guys want to see in more detail?

email (option): kschaank@hotmail.com

Re: BSA WM20 restoration project

Ah, I see Koen, I'd have to go outside to get the bicycle but my motorcycles sleep in the warm, underneath my bedroom !

Good close-ups of engine and frame numbers would be useful, together with anything else stamped on the engine. Have a look at bolt heads too. They can give a clue to origin.

Re: BSA WM20 restoration project

Rik
Ah, I see Koen, I'd have to go outside to get the bicycle but my motorcycles sleep in the warm, underneath my bedroom !

Good close-ups of engine and frame numbers would be useful, together with anything else stamped on the engine. Have a look at bolt heads too. They can give a clue to origin.


Ok will do.
I had to find a garage. I live on the 4th floor and last year i did an XT500 in the living room. I can do that cause i'm single but the girls i met didn't like it so much




So now i got a garage 1.5 clicks away from here... still single though, must have been something else

email (option): kschaank@hotmail.com

Re: BSA WM20 restoration project

Fourth floor eh ? Good fun riding it down the stairs !

I do so like 'Indoor Trials '

Re: BSA WM20 restoration project

haha, yeah, that was the idea but the stairwell is to small and the corners too sharp (no elevator either). but this XT you can put back together in 2 hours so it wasn't a real problem

email (option): kschaank@hotmail.com

Re: BSA WM20 restoration project

Today i visited grandmother to have a lovely cup of tea with her and see if she could tell me a bit more about her past. I started to inspect the frame and see if i could find any numbers on it. Apart from the frame number i wasn't able to find any other numbers, i didn't expect to find more anyway.



The frame number is WM20 70201

The enige told me a bit more. Apart from the engine number which is 720(3 or 8)47, there also is a number just below that which is E5626. Also on the other side of the enige number i found a date. 12.9.55 Looks like it got overhauled at least once. Was the british army still there in 1955?




Weird to see the number is up side down.

Then the magneto and dynamo. On the dynamo we find the following numbers. E.3.A.R.A.0.5-1



On the Magneto i found the following numbers. On the back side (left side of the bike) i found 463855.





On the copper colored tag i found the following numbers, which are a bit hard to read. On the right top corner: 4E5109 On the left corner MO | 4 The O could be something else too, not sure. Then below that i found AC20 941.

The fuel tap says Jikov which is made in the former Czechoslovakia.

The carb says Halawa 2801, and is made in Czechoslavakia. However, a google search told me the carb is a Jikov, model 2801 and Halawa is an egyptian motorcycle parts importer. Now i've been told by someone with some experience with our BSA's that it runs a lot better with this carb fitted (he reconized it as being Jikov). The carb is from a Jawa by the way. They put these on the Jawa 634 but only in 1974.







On the gearbox i found a number, which was underneath the geabox. Bit difficult to make a picture of. the number is 8(x)-3141 and the is a number below that too, but i can't tell what it is yet.



I also had a look at the tyres as they might give a clue too. And they did, well the back tyre did anyway.





The front tyres as made in Japan, but apart from that i could fine more as most of it was worn off.

Took some picture of the cilinderhead. Some1 got lazy and knocked off the ribs to have easy access to the sparkplug.




The sparkplug itself is a YSA BP6.

These are some of the other pics i took.

Looks like it needs some work


Rear sprocket looks ok but the chain is worn.


Always good to know.


Lucas sparkplug cable.


Rearhub.


Need light?


The bottom of the enige. nice and greasy. at least it won't rust


That's one way to make an exhaust gasket


The garage


One happy dude



It think we can safely say it's from Egypt, or at least it's been there. Question now is, was there a BSA division there during the war and if so what did the bikes look like. Something tells me i really need to have a look inside the engine

email (option): kschaank@hotmail.com

Re: BSA WM20 restoration project

by the way. i have a question. there are 2 oil lines going from the engine to the oil tank. I have those but what is the brass colored (oil) line for which you can see on this picture? (below the middle of the shifter)

email (option): kschaank@hotmail.com

Re: BSA WM20 restoration project

Hi Koen..The date on the crankcase (timing side) indicates you have a non matched pair of crankcases..with the drive side being wartime and the timing side (dated) one being post war, from the year indicated. Crankcases were dated this way after the war. The crankcase halves are numbered on the front, either side of the joint, on one of the bosses that the bolts pass through so it is easily confirmed. BSA crankcase halves can be mixed without problems generally so it is not the end of the world!.. The timing cover is also a post war one..it has the breather in it which was relocated to there from the drive side of the crankcase in 1948. Earlier covers did not have the 'wing' on the BSA logo and the lettering was smaller...
The rear wheel is from the very first of the tele fork M33s...the speedo drive boss dates this to the six month period that M models had a rear wheel driven speedo. The sprocket on these is non detatchable and the wheel spindle is different to a military one. It is not correctly mounted to the frame either so you will have to check exactly what you have and haven't got when you remove it. If the bike did come from Egypt my advice would be to take it completely apart and start again!...Ian

Re: BSA WM20 restoration project

Timing cover is from a post war BSA, hence the air release pipe there. Correct release valve is on the driving side. Looks like your machine was originally purchased in Egypt. I should know and that gives me some accuracy in guessing. But I could be wrong. Lots of BSAs still there.

email (option): unpob@yahoo.com

Re: BSA WM20 restoration project

a nice mix of every year by the looks of it. Well, now the fun starts. will try and find more original parts where possible.

about the rear sprocket, are these replacable? Replica's maybe? They will wear out at one point. Also, the rear wheel seems to align with the gear box. wonder how they did that.

email (option): kschaank@hotmail.com

Re: BSA WM20 restoration project

Hi Koen...The only way to repair these sprockets is to machine off the old teeth and weld on a new sprocket 'ring'. Originally the drum/sprocket was replaced by removing the rivets that attached it to the hub and rivetting on a new one.
However, there are no original or pattern drums available now.
This type of wheel was fitted to the post war rigid frames which were basically the same as the wartime ones, so chain alignment wasn't a problem...Ian

Re: BSA WM20 restoration project

Ah i see. I'm not too worried about parts like a timing cover. 48 is only 3 years after the war. I'll replace it if i happen to stumble on a original one. wheels however i do want to have a look at, because i can't remember having a speedo slot at the front wheel either, which tells me it is also not from 42. I'll have to double check on this. So now the next question, what does a 41/42 wheel look like? :D

email (option): kschaank@hotmail.com

Re: BSA WM20 restoration project

The blackout by the way is postwar Russian!

If I would do this as a first time restoration, I would not do it! with perfect hindsight ofcourse.

But it will just be too costly in the end, sorry, but my 2 cents,

Lex Schmidt

email (option): welbike@welbike.net

Re: BSA WM20 restoration project

oh no worries, it's not my first project. Rebuild my guzzi 850t4 after if shattered the bigend bearings while doing 180km/h and also restored the XT500. These things cost money i know. that's just hobby. i don't expect this old bird to ride next month either so i got all the time in the world to have a look for parts :)

email (option): kschaank@hotmail.com

Re: BSA WM20 restoration project

question, are the left and right footpegs identical? my left one is broken.

email (option): kschaank@hotmail.com

Re: BSA WM20 restoration project

Left and Right pegs are identical.

Have you a parts book with pictures?

email (option): britool51@hotmail.com

Re: BSA WM20 restoration project

I do. printed it out today. I couldn't find a picture yet, but i have a partlist book too (from the bike even) and there i see under the footrest group part number 66-4913 which is a Footrest Bracket and i need 2 of those which tells me they are identical :) 4s6d. cheap :P

one other question, i happend to have stumbled on a timevalve cover for, what looks to be, my bike. with the BSA with no wing. However my crankcase half is from 1955 so will it fit?

email (option): kschaank@hotmail.com

Re: BSA WM20 restoration project

Went to the garage today. Just wanted to have a look at the bike with the sparepart list in my hand. Couldn't resist to take the valve spring cover off. 66-242, should be 66-244. older type? Also took the timing cover off. thats 66-1919 and i "need" 66-1918. The inside of both look promising. oily to the touch. which means no rust. nice to see the cork seals. never seen that before. They look in good shape. guess they last longer than paper ones as they tend to tear apart when disassembling. Also took off the clutch cover. Found a new chain between the clutch and the crankshaft but oh man, what was that chain tight. Sprockets look ok, but the clutch needs some work i think. serveral different nuts keep it together the clutch plates look like they have plenty of wear to go. will have a closer look when taking it apart.

email (option): kschaank@hotmail.com

Re: BSA WM20 restoration project

Hi Koen,

If you need to take a look at a couple of nice BSA's in the Rotterdam area...contact me.

I have a '44 in my garage, a '43 in parts and friends living in the area with a '40 and '44 model

Greetings from Schiedam...yes neighbours

Martien

email (option): mar10vw@hotmail.com

Re: BSA WM20 restoration project

Ian Wright
Hi Koen...The only way to repair these sprockets is to machine off the old teeth and weld on a new sprocket 'ring'. Originally the drum/sprocket was replaced by removing the rivets that attached it to the hub and rivetting on a new one.
However, there are no original or pattern drums available now.
This type of wheel was fitted to the post war rigid frames which were basically the same as the wartime ones, so chain alignment wasn't a problem...Ian


Ian, if found this website which sells rear sprockets (made in England). saves us the trouble of grinding, welding and lathing.

http://www.vintage-motorcycle.com/index.php?language=en&site=4&pid=200&id=291&limit=30

part number 66-6107.

nice site btw, lots of goodies

email (option): kschaank@hotmail.com

Re: BSA WM20 restoration project

Martien
Hi Koen,

If you need to take a look at a couple of nice BSA's in the Rotterdam area...contact me.

I have a '44 in my garage, a '43 in parts and friends living in the area with a '40 and '44 model

Greetings from Schiedam...yes neighbours

Martien


Martien, i will definitely drop by to have a look :) Will have to do so after i get back from Texas, mid Dec. I'll contact you :)

email (option): kschaank@hotmail.com

Re: BSA WM20 restoration project

Hi Koen. This chain wheel is actually for wartime rear wheel, I believe you will need post war one.
This shop is in Austria and not the cheapest always.
You have at least 2 nice web shops in Holland with more nice prices.

http://www.degroot-bsa.nl

http://www.petersclassicbikeparts.nl

Kalle

Re: BSA WM20 restoration project

Hey kalle, thx for the links! i know my wheels are wrong. Looking into that. just happen to stumble on the website. I'm pretty sure they ship to the UK too :P

email (option): kschaank@hotmail.com

Re: BSA WM20 restoration project

Hello lads,

Unfortunatly i'm back in Texas for work, but it did give me the time to study the maintenance manual in the 9 hour fligth. I did have some questions which you guys might be able to anwser:

1. It being a dry sump and theoretically not much oil in the carter due to ball valves in the system, how much oil would oil would i expect to find if the two ball valve are ok?

2. In the manual they give several warning about not dismantaling the oil pump unless it is really faulty. I guess it's a pain in the ass to take it apart and put it back together. My question is how can i check the pump if it it still ok or not without taking it apart. And how much oil flow do i need to have?

3. On my clutch i don't have the dome which needs the paper gasket to preven oil coming in the clutch. Now i also didn't have the cork seal in the primary cover either. The manual says the chain runs in an oil bath. Is this something you guys still do or do you pump some chainlub on the chain every now and then?

email (option): kschaank@hotmail.com

Re: BSA WM20 restoration project

Hi Koen..you need to start a new post to save us scrolling through miles of postings ...Ian

Nieuwe pagina 1