I am considering selling my recently restored Matchless G3L as I may need to find funding for another project. I was hoping to get the forums thoughts on what price I should be advertising it at?

1942 G3L, fully restored about 4 years ago and very few miles since then (about 500 and never in the wet).

Full bare metal respray
engine and gearbox professionally rebuilt with all NOS parts (new barrel,piston etc)
This bike has all the hard to find bits ( brass Bowden combination levers, canvas grips,speedo, ammeter,blackout mask etc)
Wheels professionally rebuilt with stainless spokes and new Dunlop K70 tyres
New armours exhaust
NOS correct carb
Seat resprung and recovered
All replacement fasteners were stainless ( I dread to think how much the stainless bolts add up to?)
Repro pannier bags

I think you get the idea.

Your thoughts please?

Priceless.

email (option): noam10@gmail.com

Very good! If only?

Tim, I think you could get £4/ 4,500 for it. Interested to hear what others think. Cheers, John

email (option): tinley@btinternet.com

I'd have thought it would have done the £4750 bracket, which is about the maximum you'd ever get for one (at the moment) I've only ever seen one more at £4850 but I don't know if he got it. Very nice looking bike!

email (option): davmax@ntlworld.com

Thanks for the comments.
I was hoping to advertise it at just under £5000 as I think it is worth that when compared to some of the bikes I have seen getting £3500 - £4000, and they have a lot of the WD specific bits missing.
My only dilemma is if I did let it go, would I ever be able to restore another one and manage to get all the right bits that took me ages to find on this resto. I imagine a lot of these bits are almost impossible to find now.

Tim, I was reluctant to offer a for sale figure for your G3L. But since you mention the 5 grand amount, I would be inclined to try it at that. However it always amazes me that some would rather pay £3500 for a well worn bike with most of the important WD bits missing. In the hope of preparing it correctly them selves. As you say these parts are becoming almost impossible to find and very expensive if you do.
I would stick it on Milweb or some such. Don't forget our pound is nearly equal to the Euro so it's a good buy for someone on the continent and especially attractive for some countries with UK registration docs. Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

people pay more for doer uppers because they want to do them up the joy of looking for spares and painting bit some thing that is beautifuly rebuilt and would cost less that the one you have rebuild

hi tim nice bike and just wondering where you got the 'm' on the tank from as i have a matchless g3l myself.
cheers michael

email (option): michael.rutland@homail.co.uk

That's a nice looking restoration with a good 'spec sheet'..I wouldn't take less than £5000..It's worth every penny when you look at some of the tat for sale and the prices being asked for it. I sold one of my M20s early last year for nearly that figure.
A similar restoration but with quite a few more miles on it, though still in great condition....Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Hey Mike the VMCC transfer scheme will have the M transfers. Point of interest, I have a NOS G3L tank and the M has a slightly gold tinge to it, not plain silver.
Cheers, Mick

email (option): mick@motorbikemike.org.uk

Michael,
I got the M transfers from (I think they were called) Classic Transfers, they used to advertise on the back page of old bike mart. They may have indeed originally had a gold tinge to them but this was the closest I could find.
Thanks for all your comments on the value. Its reassuring to know that my original idea of its value is pretty much the same as the forum.
I will keep you posted as to how I get on. ( thats if I do sell, it depends on if the new project materialises.)
It did cross my mind for a few seconds but I could never bring myself to do it ( I am sure there are a lot of folks out there that would though), I wonder how much more money you would get if you took off all the WD bits and sold them seperatley and then sold the bike (minus WD bits) for £3500 - £4000ish?

Hi Tim,
Have a look at this M20 on e bay 220743664085. If that is up at £4,500 yours must be worth about £7,000+!
Joking apart, and that dealer on e bay is a joke I would say around £5,000 would be fair but think about it carefully - You will have to pay a lot more than that to get a similar machine back again at a later date.
If you need money I understand kidney's fetch a good price these days!
regards
Clive

email (option): cliveandjo@lineone.net

Hey Tim, consider carefully before deciding to sell.
I have sold a couple of bikes in the past and really regretted it now as there is no way I could now afford to replace them at today's prices.
Back in 2002 I paid the massive sum of £2,000 for my G3L, I thought that would be the most a WD bike would ever make. How wrong can you be! You might want another G3L in the future and not be able to afford one.
Cheers, Mick.

email (option): mick@motorbikemike.org.uk

Isn't all this talk of money kinda spoiling the whole fun and experience of owning these bikes?
I bought my own WM20 about 6-7 years ago or so. It cost £900 plus change. It needed recommissioning following a total rebuild (by the previous owner). The recommissioning came to another £100-£150.

It's about 90 percent original (I think), and is now worth maybe £2500-£3000. But every time the price goes up, it just makes it more and more "precious".

It's the same for you guys. Now we're all afraid to park our bikes at shows for fear of someone nicking a few parts, if not the entire machine.

I'm looking forward to the day when prices collapse and we can just ride these old heaps without having to cosset them and recalculate the scrap value every time we take them out on the road.

I understand that money is money and times are hard, but you can only listen to so much talk about crude market values (no offence intended).

email (option): dannydefazio@sumpmagazine.com

Love the bike Tim.That front guard seems to have a girder shaped pressing for the tele clearance.I need one for my girder forks in plain unribbed pattern Where did you get it?

Danny I fully understand your sentiments. The value of my bikes is also fairly academic, as they're not for sale. But if someone needs to sell one, then some research is required as to the best value.

Douglas the pressing in the front guard is correct. Here is mine with original guard. Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Whereas my early G3 has a ribbed guard. Did they go to non ribbed later? Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

There are also upsides Danny .

We tend to be much more carefull with things that hurt your wallet if neglected or abused .
So,a certain value is good for the preservation of the species .
After all "these old heaps" are 70 years old with important historic meaning.

Also: If these bike's were be cheap, lots of idiots still were cutting them up an make choppers or dirtbike's out of them.

So , in my opinion you have to make a serious sacrifice to own a peace of history like this to prove youre worth it.

I dont think the market will ever collapse for WD machines as i don't think it will go "banana's" like with the Vincents,Brough Superior and the likes.
I suspect and hope they will always be within the grasp of the working man.

Ed.

I agree with Ed..There is much talk of hard to find parts being reproduced and one way or another they usually do get made in the end. Nobody would bother to make anything if the bikes (and parts) had low values.
Rising prices are largely driven by dealers and the Classic Bike Magazines in my opinion who both have a vested interest in giving machines 'value'. Also, of course there is the ever increasing cost of restoration.
I think the average WD bike owner is, and has to be, aware of those values but that is not generally the prime motivator for owning one for the majority.
The WD market is a smaller version of all markets...arguably the 'exotica' such as WB30s, Harley XAs and ULs and perhaps Norton Big 4s are already beyond the financial resources of many buyers but the more 'mundane' models such as M20s,16hs,WDCOs etc. etc. can still be found for reasonable and attainable money. If prices do rise too fast and too far there is likely to be a readjustment in the form of a slow down in those rises..after all the market can't function if the majority can't afford to buy. It has happened more than once in the past with quite long periods of fairly static prices.Isn't it already the case that it is difficult to get the real value (in relation to others) of a very well restored machine?..Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Couple of points; the classic bike press often gets accused of helping inflate classic bike prices, but it simply isn't true. It's not even vaguely true. The press simply REFLECTS what's going on in the real world and is always TRAILING the market, not LEADING it. As a journalist, I wish I had the power to inflate prices. I'd simply buy a few cheap classics, inflate the prices and cash in. But it doesn't work that way.

The classic market, like all markets, is driven by ordinary (and therefore fickle) market forces. Plenty of times, the classic bike press focusses on a particular model, but the market doesn't respond and rush out and buy the bike. For years, for instance, the classic bike press had been extolling the "virtues" of cheap sidevalves, but they stayed cheap for decades. It's the same with Panthers. Look back at the old magazines and you'll see lots of articles stating how cheap they are and reporting on prices (both in the want ads and at auctions) but the prices stayed low, and often fell. Ditto for Velocettes (which are still cheap), ditto for AMC singles (which are still good value bikes), and ditto for BMW Boxers (people are practically giving them away, and these bikes are technically perhaps the best on the planet).

A few years ago, Gold Stars took a dip in the market, and this was at a time when the press was writing almost constantly about them and revealing auction prices.

If you want to lay the "blame" at the rise in value of WD bikes, it's probably better aimed at this website. Not that I'm complaining. It's a great site. But the "downside" is that lots of people now want to get in on the reanactment scene. That's also driven up the price of military clothing, etc. And other military equipment.

When I bought my M20, I just wanted a 1930s/1940s classic that was cheap to buy and cheap to get spares for. A friend of mine had an M20 outfit and tipped me off about Russell Motors (and similar). So I bought one. The price explosion happened about 3-4 years after I bought mine (and 2-3 years after I starting writing about them in the classic bike press).

I've also written thousands of words on Triumph T140s and have reported on prices, but you can still buy one for less than £3000 (even less than £2500). One of my T140s, bought 6 years ago, cost just £1700; rebuilt, with spares, with special tools, and a few hundred pounds of stainless steel.

Regarding preserving bikes (due to raised values), the problem is that you reach a point when the preservation takes the bikes out of ordinary usage - which is why almost nobody rides Vincents, Broughs, Crockers, and similar exotica. When prices rise, something is saved, but something (arguably more valuable) is lost. I'd rather ride my bike into the ground and have some fun with it, than maintain it for future generations at the expense of the "here and nowness" of it.

In short, the rise in the price of WD bits is driven entirely by the increased ppoularity, which is driven largely by military websites. That's what's fuelling demand for parts; parts that are now sitting in thousands of sheds and garages around the world.

Incidentally, I don't "buy into" the preserving history argument for another reason. We're a long way from seeing WD bikes as an endangered species. Why, just a few years ago there were 150 of them at a rally in Normandy, which probably represents a tiny fraction of the world total.

Also, the guys who chopped these bikes back in the 1970s and 1980s probably did us a favour. A lot of these parts would have gone on the scrap heap had they not been given a new lease of life. And what gets chopped can get unchopped.

email (option): dannydefazio@sumpmagazine.com

Hi Danny, My observations regarding what I think are the market drivers are not about apportioning 'blame', they are just my views on how the market got to where it is. In fact I think a healthy market value is beneficial with regards to repro parts being made available and in recovering the substantial rebuild costs should you choose to move one of your bikes on.
I do think that regarding the classic bike press as mere observers, dutifully reflecting developements is not really the case.
A cover price of the best part of £5 for a typical 'glossy' is supported by instilling in the mind of the motorcycle owner (and reader) that what he is reading about is rare, valuable and collectable.
I have long argued that the basic models that were produced in large quantities for everyday transport are niether particularly rare or valuable and don't merit the 'sacred cow' status applied to them.
You won't, however, see that view expressed in the majority of 'Classic' bike magazines.
Virtually without exception only concours type bikes are featured with very little coverage of every day 'hackers' and non standard examples that have been modified to improve their performance on the road etc....in fact anything that doesn't fit into the 'cherished' category.
It is certainly true that the influence of the magazines on machine selection is limited..I think people know what they like. However, I believe the magazines have a large influence on the way people view what they own.
In a world where the majority of owners don't use their bikes as a means of transport, in fact don't use them at all in many cases I feel inclined to conclude that they think the rarity and value preclude that type of activity and that the press are complicit in that way of thinking.
When was the last time you saw a feature about someone who relies on their bikes for transport as I do?..they are very few and far between, a bit like the people who do it. Perhaps the press should start suggesting they get out and use that 'classic' every week instead of polishing it and thinking it is too valuable/rare to use?..Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Hi Ian, I think this thread is getting out of sequence, so I've attached your name to it to mark what I think is the cuurent post.

When I was writing for Classic Bike magazine, with Brian Crichton as editor, I was regularly writing about very ordinary daily classics, including my own M20, Bantams, Greeves, Normans, Panthers, A10s, A50s. There was a regular spot called Me and My Classic which was dedicated to non-aspirational ride-to-work machines.

Time and again I've written about Budget Classics and Entry Level Classics and Bikes-You-Can-Get-For-Less-Than-£2000 - or even less than £1000.

Fact is, if you stick a BSA Bantam on the cover of Classic Bike magazine, sales drop. If you stick a DBD34 Gold Star, sales rise. If you put a classy Triumph on the cover, sales rise further. It's not the editors who are driving this. It's the readership. The market. This indicates that the bike press is reflecting public interest, not driving it.

What's happening is what's called selective abstraction. You remember things very selectively. For instance, an issue of Classic Bike has two features on "blue chip" bikes (say, a Vincent and Trident racer, or similar. But it also has three features on grey porridge bikes (say, a B31, a Royal Enfield Clipper, and maybe a 350 AJS). Two years later you think back to old Classic Bikes and you tend to remember the blue chips, not the porridge. It's human nature. You remember the highs, and sometimes the lows. But the middle ground dissolves.

Back in 2002, I wrote a 13 page feature on undervalued classics. Some are now fairly highly priced. But back then, the prices were different. The list included a post-war Ariel Square Four (£2750-£5000, a T150 trident (£2000-£3500); a BSA B50 Royal Star (£1500-£2250); a T140V (£2000-£4500);and a BMW R75 (£1250-£2000). Most of these bikes are still fairly "cheap", whatever that means to you.

I also did a piece in that issue on a military Enfield Bullet. There were 8 Italian lightweights. The cover bike was a Norton Commando (Buyers Guide; £2500-£6000).

Fast forward to Classic Bike 2008. Features on 1962 Triumph T100C;1971 A65 Thunderbolt: 1976 Norton Commando: 1973 Triumph TR6; 1958 Matchless G11; 1951 Sunbeam S7; 1960 Velocette Venom; 1973 Honda CB750; 1984 Kawasaki Z650; 1962 BSA A65; 2002 Royal Enfield Bullet - all these bikes from a hire firm in Provence and in regular use. Not blue chip.

I also wrote a piece of 5 Hercules/DKW Wankels, and there was a high-miler (158,000) Kawasaki ZIR (on the cover).

I also wrote a piece about my own T140 hack (I don't even own a car and use my bikes daily), and Brian Crichton wrote about his humble Suzuki X7.

These examples came from the first Classic Bike magazines that I picked up. I didn't "select" them.

Far from inflating prices, every time I wrote a buyers guide, I opted for the CHEAPEST price for a specific model. Readers often complained that I was undervaluing their bikes, and I had to explain the rationality; that the value of a bike isn't the top end; it's the bottom end and the middle ground. There will always be people prepared to pay "over the odds". I was interested in the minimum price you need pay for a reasonable example with an MOT.

I regularly wrote a piece on budget/everyday classics including bikes such as Ariel Leaders, Ironhead Sportsters, Yamaha 650s, Tiger Cubs and so on. Put simply, the everyday classics are in fact the staple diet of the classic mags, but the readership wants aspirational bikes on the cover and in the centre spread. That distorts memory, and people think it's all about blue chip exotica. But it's simply not the case.

It's also worth remembering that most classic bike riders don't even read the magazines; at least, not regularly. I was constantly interviewing people who'd never heard of me or Brian Crichton or Hugo Wilson or Mick Duckworth (all of us writing for the World's number one classic bike magazine). Also, the people buying the blue chip bikes and driving up prices are, in general, NOT classic bikers. They're just people/investors with money. Last year it was furniture. Next year it will be something else. They pay high prices because they don't know any better. It's a self-exciting investment market. Auction houses, understandably, try to get the highest prices possible. But the classic bike mags are innocent of all charges.

email (option): dannydefazio@sumpmagazine.com

Hey Ron, all G3s were fitted with ribbed guards, however as the later non ribbed guards will fit I suspect the workshops fitted whatever was available. My G3 came to me with non ribbed guards, the previous owner purchased it in 1955, with them on. He remembers when Dawsons motors got the batch from an army sale and had the pic of the bunch. I assumes they were fitted when it had an overhaul in 1946.
Early G3Ls also had ribbed guards, changing possibly mid '42 to plain section. Perhaps John Tinley, Steve Madden or Ed Abbott could clear that one up, as there is no part number change in the books.
Cheers, Mick.

email (option): mick@motorbikemike.org.uk

Thanks for that Mick. It does mean that Douglas's quest for a plain mudguard for his G3 is probably erroneous. Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

phew!! that stirred up a hornet nest on prices speaking for myself looking back some 5 year when i was looking for an M20 there didnt seem to be a lot for sale even at a top price one i saw was £3999 restored i managed to get mine for £2500 and it was in a restored condition but spent another £1000 plus doing the thing that were wrong with it ie clutch fell off held on with fibre washers front forks worn out tightened up to discuise the problems inc steering head bearing being wrong and mag/dyno rebuild plus smaller bits and bobs still i was happy with it and even happier now

hi tim just what mick said and when their gone they are hard to replace and back in 2005 i brought a g3l and still have it today, which i bought for £1500 which i will never get rid of as my boy when he's ready will get it with my royal enfield.
cheers michael

email (option): michael.rutland@homail.co.uk