I am looking for the bearing numbers for Norton 16H engine and gearbox bearings...not the original part numbers, but the modern bearing numbers....does anyone have them?...Ian

email (option): julie@wright52.plus.com

My books lists as follows-
Crank D/S CFL8 and RLS8 (SKF), LRJA1 and LJ1 (R&M)
Crank t/s CFL8(SKF), LRJA1 (R&M)
G/box main gear wheel RLS9Z/ 1 1/4"(SKF), 1/JL1 1/4D(R&M)
G/box mainshaft RLS5 (SKF), LJ5/8 (R&M)
Cheers, Mick.

email (option): mick@motorbikemike.org.uk

Thanks for the quick response Mick!!.....Ian

email (option): julie@wright52.plus.com

and wheels bearings should be 6203 and 4203, but I have fitted 6203-2RS1 and 62203-2RS1 since thirty years.

Rob

email (option): rvanmeel@wanadoo.nl

I think Big4 main bearings are different, isn't there 2 roller bearings in place of two of the ball races?

email (option): robmiller11@yahoo.co.uk

Didn't the WD16H have standard a self aligning set of bearings for the cranckshaft: RL8's, this in contrast to journal ball bearings like RLS8?

Rob

email (option): rvanmeel@wanadoo.nl

The RL8 has two rows of ball bearings and is spherically ground to allow for housing misalignment or shaft flex....surely Norton crankcases weren't THAT inaccurate were they...?..or was it to accommodate a 'flexi' crank assembly? .....Ian

email (option): julie@wright52.plus.com

The B4 has 2 Roller bearings Skefko CRL 8 and 1 Ball bearing Skefko RLS 8, think the ball bearing goes on the timing side.

Hope this helps,

Lex

email (option): welbike@welbike.net

Hi Lex, when can I mail your package?

email (option): unpob@yahoo.com

Hi Henri,

Am waiting for another package with books, then everything can be sent I guess. Have found the second James flywheel, and have found a strong box, so will send that this week.

Cheers,

Lex

email (option): welbike@welbike.net

No worries on the flywheel. Will standby.

email (option): unpob@yahoo.com

Come on then you Norton men..does the 16H use the RLS8 or the RL8?...Ian

email (option): julie@wright52.plus.com

Ian Wright

Come on then you Norton men..does the 16H use the RLS8 or the RL8?...Ian

email (option): welbike@welbike.net

I would go with RLS8, as the LJ1 is just a plain ball bearing aswell. Its what came out of my 16H.
Cheers, Mick.

email (option): mick@motorbikemike.org.uk

Thanks again Mick....Ian

email (option): julie@wright52.plus.com

I've just had a rummage in the 16H crankcase pile and found four sets with bearings in. All the bearings in situ seem to be Hoffman. They are marked on the outer 'UL10' and mostly on the inners where visible 'ULS10'- It looks as if all three bearings are identical.

Do you have a Hoffmann cross-reference list ?

Hi Rik...I do...
Hoffmann ULS 10..double row self aligning bearing
Equivalents..
SKF..RL8
FBC..RL8
RHP..NLJ1
R&M..NLJ1
Essential dimensions..O.D. 2 1/4"..I.D. 1"..Width. 5/8"
Ian

email (option): julie@wright52.plus.com

Would you like some photos Ian ? These are bearings that were installed donkeys years ago.

Nortons do have a bit of a reputation for flexy cranks - think of the so-called 'Superblend' mains on the Commando (FAG NJ306E). That said, they were smoother for being able to flex a bit.

I imagine a 16H crank follows an arc similar to a skipping rope.

Hi Rik..a photo of the inner bearing would be handy.
It seems there is still a question over whether the self aligning type was always used. This thread has quotes from parts lists that refer to the RLS8 which was not a self aligning type. Obviously the wartime period is of greatest interest...Ian

email (option): julie@wright52.plus.com

This is a bearing from a timing side case :-



Drive side case showing the inboard bearing :-



Alternative drive side bearing with folded steel cage rather than solid bronze :-



Strangely the outboard bearing looks to be a bronze one marked ULS10. I can't see any markings on the inboard bearing but as the house is occupied at the moment, I can't put the case in the oven to drop the outer ring out.

Thanks Rik...does the ULS10 have one or two rows of balls?...Ian

email (option): julie@wright52.plus.com

Two rows Ian. This means that the wibbly-wobbly old Norton crank is supported on six rows of balls.

You can just about make out where the second row sits in this picture :-

So nobody can say a Norton rider hasn't got balls. ..thanks for clearing that up Rik...now take a look in your 'inbox'...Ian

email (option): julie@wright52.plus.com

Still think it's a lot of balls!! anyway, parts lists do say Hoffman, had a look at my exploded view engine just now, and thas has a RL8 bearing on the timing side, also double rowed, but cannot tell if it's self alinging or not.

Hope this helps

email (option): welbike@welbike.net

Having worked on many a Norton over the last 30 odd years, I stick with my initial remark that WD 16H's used self aligning bearings.

I spotted the following in some of the spares lists that I have:
Contract Y6730/8279 spare parts list (government of India) state:
Important: the following parts are fitted to machines to Contract Y6730/8279, and supersede parts fitted to machines supplied to previous contracts
Part No. Description price
8858 Mainhaft Roller bearing 18 3
9033a& 9033 Mainshaft Ball bearing 10 9
Further in the booklet:
9033 Mainshaft Ball Bearing, 1in. x 2 1/4in. X 5/8in. Hoffmann

Norton War Office contract 5612; frame numbers 7000 to 10999
9033 Mainshaft Ball Bearing, 1in. x 2 1/4in. X 5/8in. Hoffmann 11 0

Norton War Office contract 7353; frame numbers 26001 to 43000
9033 Mainshaft Ball Bearing, 1in. x 2 1/4in. X 5/8in. Hoffmann 11 0

Norton War Office contract 9062; frame numbers 43001 to 44893
9033 Mainshaft Ball Bearing, 1in. x 2 1/4in. X 5/8in. Hoffmann 11 0

Norton War Office contract 11082; frame numbers 60001 to 70000
9033 Mainshaft Ball Bearing, 1in. x 2 1/4in. X 5/8in. Hoffmann 3x MT7/42293

Norton War Office contract S5161; frame numbers 90001 to 96000
9033 Mainshaft Ball Bearing, 1in. x 2 1/4in. X 5/8in. Hoffmann 3x MT7/42293

The Norton spare parts list for contract 11297 633 cc. Model S.W.D. states:
2254 2x Mainshaft Rolling Bearing, 1in. x 2 1/4in. X 5/8in. MT7/8524
9033 Mainshaft Ball Bearing, 1in. x 2 1/4in. X 5/8in. MT7/42293

So pre-war some 16H had roller bearings fitted, according to the specs in the Indian contract list.
16H has three identical ball bearings, with the Army part number MT7/42293.
Norton initially listed these as being Hoffmann, but one cannot presume that actually Hoffmann bearings were always fitted: production needs overruled the availability of this specific make, I would assume.

Big Fours had two roller bearings and one ball bearing: again here one may have been used in a 16H as the need/opportunity came up?

Och well: I have replaced RL8's for RLS 8's, but maybe that is why there is some vibration noticable over 45 miles per hour?

email (option): rvanmeel@wanadoo.nl

Thanks Rob..so in conclusion we are saying wartime 16Hs had 3 off double row ,self aligning ball bearings as standard...that makes ordering a bit easier !!...Ian

email (option): julie@wright52.plus.com

Just a thought Rob, but was that India contract for 1938 pattern engines (as per the Big 4) ?

The original notes in the factory records relating to WD contracts lists 'Hoffmann main bearings' so I'd suspect that MEE insisted on this, perhaps after failure of others under test ?

I don't think that Nortons would have risked those prestigious Ministry contracts by fitting bearings other than those specified.

I looked in four sets of old cases for Ian and found nothing other than Hoffmanns.

Personally, I much prefer self-aligning balls, especially when wearing tight trousers.

Quote: The original notes in the factory records relating to WD contracts lists 'Hoffmann main bearings' so I'd suspect that MEE insisted on this, perhaps after failure of others under test ?
unquote
Early war time or late war time notes?

Initially Norton would probably have tried to fit Hoffmann bearings, for one reason or another, but would it be the real thing to stop production if you ran out of Hoffmann bearings, with German bombers overhead nearly every day of the week, and money only coming in after delivery to one of the RAOC depots?

AND: the VAOS LV6-MT7 publication 81/7 dated january 1945 lists:
Bearings, Ball Journal (EH?), Double Row, Self-Aligning - Inch sizes:
42293 1in. x 2 1/4In. x 5/8In.
R & M Part No. NLJ.1
Hoffmann Part No. ULS.10
SKF Part No. RL.8
So when the army in 1945 would not specify a maker's on the bearing number in the Norton Catalogue, why would we?
Unless of course you got an early engine and will try to stay as close to original as you can: indeed I would go for Hoffmann bearings too!

Rob

email (option): rvanmeel@wanadoo.nl

All my Norton's bearings were Hoffmanns too. I replaced them with new RHPs...

I will see if some of my spare engines have Hoffmanns, probably so.

In a Motor Cycle (or Motor Cycling) article on the design of the 1938-39 Norton 16H engine in civilian trim by “Ubique” (nowadays that would be called an advertorial) the bearings are described as: On the drive side there is first a ball bearing (at the outside), then a spacing ring, and next a caged roller bearing. An identical roller bearing supports the timing side. Mainshafts are described as: 1in. diameter, and made out of nickel steel, case-hardened, with a very slight taper fit (0.003in per Inch) and keyed. Pen steel washers are used as shims to limit the total side-play to 0.005in.

email (option): rvanmeel@wanadoo.nl

The spacer between the two driveside mainbearings does not appear in the WD parts book (for the "1937" pattern engine) although I have sometimes found them there when dismantling. It doesn't feature either in the 1938 civilian list nor the 1939 supplement. It seems to make its first appearance in the 1946 book , numbered A2/33.

If the spacer is used in a WD engine then it will sometimes need machining in order to obtain con rod alignment with the cylinder axis.

It is clear that the 1938 pattern engine featured a roller bearing on the drive side and this continued in 1946.

I'm looking for a set of main bearings for my big4.

Are these suitable for the rollers, ebay 172081273980

And who sells self aligning twin row bearings?

Rob

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk

Martyn Streeter bought his correct bearings last year from Les at Russell's.

Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

I replaced my self aligning bearings with a roller on the timing side and a roller and ball bearing on the drive side. The surface area on the self aligning bearings is quite small and I wouldn't bother with them. I bought them from Russell's.

email (option): horror@blueyonder.co.uk

How critical is it to use C3 tolerance?

Rob

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk

On a personal basis, I have found this thread enormously interesting and helpful - thanks Ian plus all who have replied !

My own 16H runs on non self-aligning bearings that originally came from Draganfly.............not sure of the make but no issues since whatsoever, no play, no vibration (other than the normal), a big mileage since and I thrash this thing.....

Interestingly though, and to add to the thread, I recently stripped-down my spare 16H engine and this was fitted with the self-aligning bearings as discussed above......they were rather worn, one disintegrated on removal, but the big-end assembly in the engine remains sound and within wear limits....this engine has stampings indicating overhaul at some point by a Middle-Eastern ("E" class) workshop..............I too, am debating what to fit when I get round to rebuilding this unit, but if my up and running one is anything to go by I may simply opt for standard non-self-aligning bearings if the current performance over the last 15 years is anything to go by.........

Thanks again though, for all the useful contributions on this thread......

['How critical is it to use C3 tolerance?..']

'C3' fit refers to the internal clearance of the bearing..Bore, O.D and width are the same as a 'standard' bearing...

The purpose of the larger internal clearance is to take account of the relatively high running temperature and the amount of 'crush' on the bearing resulting from the interference fit when it is fitted to the crankcase..

However, the extra tolerance can be measured in microns so is relatively small...

I believe it is highly likely that many cases have lost some of this fit over the years through repeated and sometimes incorrect fitting and removal of bearings...

Certainly I have used non C3 fit bearings many times in BSA engines without noticeable problems...

Generally I'll use a C3 fit bearing if it is available, though some are now getting hard to find in that fit and in some cases the cost difference is massive...

At the risk of starting off another debate I'll also express my personal opinion (and one confirmed by more than one bearing supplier)that I would only use branded bearings from Japanese, European or American manufacturers for this application...

Of course, in the final analysis that is a choice for the individual...Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Hi Ian.
Typically internal fit on a standard bearing of this size is between C2 and C3. Which is from 12 to 18 microns. A C3 fit on the same size would be between 15 to 21 microns. So really it's an overlapping tolerance which means C3 just guarentees that you get the upper limit of the clearance for the reasons that you so elequantly stated.

It would be good practice these days to look for C3 but not essential.
I look forward to the list of required bearings in due course, I will certainly help as I can.
Darren.

email (option): Dwrudd at lineone dot net

Hi Darren...Thanks for the extra detail regarding fits...Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

May have already been said, but;

The self-aligning bearings are used in the early 1932/3 TWO main-bearing ES2/16H engines (one each side of the crank) and are expensive and difficult to find - there may be a spherical roller equivalent out there?
The later three bearing engines are not self aligning.

I'm not certain which crankcases the WD engine normally use, but i recently converted a set of two bearing WD marked cases for use on my 1932 ES2 ....?

In all cases C3 or C4 fit are specified, these have increase clearance.

As for using a roller bearing in the drive side, for the mileage we do you can substitute a ball bearing - i ran a (fast)short-stroke ES2 for 3 years without any bottom end problems with balls all round.





As for rigidity - the crank should be rigid - not the crankcases attempting to hold the crank rigid - there are endless cases where the crank was not allowed to move (bend) as it wants - the classic being the Norton Commando combat engine and its 'superblend' mains (also reduce triumph crank from breakage).

One reason why many racing engines simply have a pair of adequately sized mains - without a third 'outrigger' bearing.

(its easy to get & keep two bearings in line, less easy to get three....)

Totally agree NigP, this thread is now so long and confusing it probably defeats it,s initial purpose. To clarify to the best of my knowledge of WD 16Hs which goes back to '76 the mains consist of three identical ball bearings 1" X 2 1/4" X 5/8" (Hoffman) with a small spacer between the two on the drive side. ie no rollers.

The crank and cases are exactly the same as a post war ES2 which use a roller on the timing side and a roller and ball on the drive side. They weren't worried about flexing cranks and self aligning bearing on the OHV engine which puts out more power, so why worry about it on the 16H? The rollers and ball are easy to get and probably cost less than the self aligning bearings. I can't see why anyone would want to use them. I just phoned Russell's and asked for a set, and put them in. It's not that complicated

email (option): horror@blueyonder.co.uk

You're right , you can probably fit ball or roller bearings in any combination you like on timing or drive sides with no problems. I was just mentioning the correct arrangement for a WD 16H as some people seem to like to have everything spot on as period. The bearings I mentioned, I also believe they are RLS8 single row balls, ie not self aligning.
BTW you should get 50,000 miles out of a set of mains so I wouldn't worry about it.

I agree you can probably get away with lots of different components on any old vehicle rebuild and its up to the owner to fit anything they want, but its another matter altogether advising someone else to do it, and this forum could be here in years to come offering bad advise, so I think we need to stick to the facts.

The engine on the Military 16H is basically a 1935 design which was designed to use 3 ball races.

The Military Big4 has a later generation engine more like a late 1930s 16H but with a very long stroke, it probably does produce more torque and was designed to have two rollers and one ball race and it may well need it.

The reasons for using different types of bearing are many and varied, as are the opinions on the subject, just try googling Norton Commando Superblend.

I had hoped that this thread would offer an opportunity to buy the correct bearings directly and more cheaply than through a motorcycle dealer but alas no.

Rob

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk

You've missread my post. I believe the correct bearings ie OEM for a WD 16H (which is what the OP was asking about), are
3 off 1" X 2 1/4" X 5/8" RLS8 ball bearings (non self aligning single row balls) I would not advise anyone to fit anything else. These are the cheapest of all the others discussed on this post and are readily available from most bearing stockists.

Ten mins on Google

Thanks Keith, so you are recommending "Budget" bearings?

Rob

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk

Well that was the first place I came to when I googled. However Henderson Bearing are a British company and have been trading since 1949. I have no idea where they source their stock from. I'm sure RHP SKF etc make and sell the same size bearings and are also equally available.
Modern bearing quality is a whole new subject but I'm sure a reputable name is a good enough guarantee.

I have found some good quality C3 roller bearings in the correct size for my big 4 mains but they have a lip in one side, is this correct?

And would the lipped sides be towards the flywheels as in the diagram?

Rob

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk

Yes that's correct Rob, if the lip was the other way round you wouldn't be able to get the crank out the casing without taking the bearing out the crank case. The inner is tight on the crank, not like the ball bearing on the drive side which is a sliding fit.
There are also shims that go behind the inner for adjusting the end float, it's not easy to take the inner on and off to do this and there are also shims that can go under the bearing in the casing.

email (option): horror@blueyonder.co.uk

Thank you Horror, I'm finally getting somewhere.

Rob

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk

Hi All

If anyone needs any assistance with bearings please do not hesitate to email me off site.
I have been dealing on bearings for over 30 years and have built up a decent knowledge in that time.
there are many 'budget' brands out there which are usually Chinese rubbish but there are also other options which are pretty good too.
Some of the tapered roller wheel bearings are getting a bit scarce and the few stockists who have them charge a ridiculous amount for them so be careful.
I am here to help and advise if needed but email is best as I often don't get on here for a while as it can be hectic at the office sometimes.:-)


Best regards
Darren

email (option): dwrudd at lineone.net