Was Keighley/Skipton ever like this in the past?

Courage of shop family who fought off armed raiders

Sixteen arrested after war hero battered by thugs

Purse snatch victim says: It could be you

The reasons are, of course, diverse but I believe that in the final event, the only control which can possibly be brought to bear is fear of pain. And in the wimpish society which we now have this is not a feature.

I also believe that the current official (European) concept of 'human rights' is utterly wrong. Rights (of an adult)are, in my opinion earned through acceptance of responsibilites and any one who abnegates his social responsibilites must forfeit his social 'rights'. Unless this principle is recognised, things can only get worse.

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 54 - 61

I disagree with your premise Bernard.
If fear of pain, or death, was a factor then the death penalty would be effective, and it clearly is not.
Crimes are generally committed in two different circumstances.
1 - those who pre-meditate their actions do so believing they will not be caught. The potential punishment therefore doesn't enter into the equation.
2 - those who act impulsively without any thought of the consequences, the same applies.

I don't claim to know the answer, I wish I did, but to say that the expectation of a painful punishment will fix the problem is wishful thinking at best.

It is not at all clear that the death penalty does not deter people from taking other peoples'lives.If nothing else, it stops that person from doing it again, and at the same time solves the problem of what to do with the culprit.
The wider point is --do penalties deter ? One simple example proves that they do. How many of you drink and drive, and if not, why not ?

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 41/46

Current location (optional) Isle of Man

From the tone of Bernard's entry I'm sure he was meaning physical pain, but I'll stand corrected. So there has been a subtle shift from 'fear of pain' to avoiding any sort of penalty.
Of course I drink and drive, but I do it in a responsible manner. There are those occasions when I might be close to the limit and I make a calculated guess about the chances of being pulled over by one of our Breathalyser Units and so far I've managed to avoid the punishment. That's scenario 1, premeditated action.
On the other hand there have been times when I've certainly had more than I intended when, eg, waiters continue to fill up my glass and, not being conscious of just how much I've had to drink, I end up pretty sloshed. By this time of course I'm not particularly rational and may believe I can drive OK and will foolishly drive. That's scenario 2, impulsive, irrational action.
I stand by my initial statement.

Many peole drink and drive,Peter,the statistics support this premise.The chances of being caught,however,are possibly one in a hundred.Drivers,knowing this,take the risk.If it was CERTAIN that they would be caught they wouldn't do it.

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 55-60

Current location (optional) Harrogate

The following will provoke "a lively debate"


Bring back the Birch,Hanging and branding by tatoo?

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 59-66

Current location (optional) HAWORTH

Tatoo should read tattoo i.e. I am a criminal!

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 59-66

Current location (optional) HAWORTH

Yes, I meant fear of physical pain. Otherwise, given an habitual offender who sneers at authority particularly in the form of police ineffectuality, would someone like to explain to me what ultimate effective deterrent there can be? And please note that we do have the situation which started this thread ergo we have no currently effective deterrent. Also please note that fear of death is an entirely different matter, and that I cited fear of pain, not pain itself; although this distinction is probably often not important.

I note that all answers have related to the first point of my posting. Does this mean that everyone agrees with my opinion re 'human rights'?

The way some people (mostly younger than me) drive, drink and conduct themselves shows me (at least) that they have no fear (or respect of others' concepts) of life and death because the daft buggars don't understand life and death. - They (life and death) mean nothing to them (ie they don't have mature concepts) and this reflects in their conduct.To them, these concepts are like "in" and "out". Possibly they have had no experience of a loving relationship and cannot conceive that taking the life of someone who is beloved of another is the worst thing they could ever do. I think that must be true - or they would not have done it. At a lower level are the antics of the over-indulged kids who have been brought up (by our generation et seq!!) to reject "no" as a denial of their "human" right to a "good life" and to fight against it with extreme ferocity, even if death is incidental. Oddly, it is largely mourners of that ilk who festoon our streets and roads with paper-wrapped floral tributes where one of their own has met their end.

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 52-60

Current location (optional) Lincoln

An answer to your question, Chris, is that Keighley in the nineteen-fifties was not a violent place. It had sporadic violence - particularly on a Saturday night, at pubs and dances where fights were certainly not unknown, but the kind of violence you cite was rare indeed.

The racial character of the town has changed drastically and many of the tensions are, I think, attributable to this factor (among others which are being discussed currently in this thread). It is a town with a drug problem, I understand, and has seen several drug-related murders or savage attacks in the past two or three years. I haven't lived there since the beginning of the sixties but drive through it regularly. It looks pretty run-down to me. It used to sport seven cinemas but now has only one, and no theatre other than amateur theatre groups. It had a fine library but despite its recent face-lift it now appears to be a computer-games and porno-access centre.

Many of our older 'reunionists' still live in Keighley - it would be good to have their views on how things are compared with how they used to be.

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 1951-58

Relax,gentlemen. Take comfort from the fact that you will get your revenge on the youth of today. It was our generation that screwed up the world they will inherit.

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 55-60

Current location (optional) Harrogate

From your responses, it is seems to me that the penalties for drinking and driving do work to some extent,and affect peoples'drinking habits,and I believe the national statistics prove it. That there are elements of the population who take their chance means that the penalties are not severe enough.
Take knife or weapon related crimes; if the penalty for committing a crime whilst in possession of a knife or firearm, whether used or not, was cat-of-nine-tails, or hanging, or the guillotine, I do not think there woud be many pre-meditators. There has been no successful,lasting empire in history that did not have very powerful deterrents and penalties built into their written or unwritten rules. It is merely a question degree of severity if you want them to be effective.

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 41/46

Current location (optional) Isle of Man

Some people just don't get it!!

Exasperating isn't it Trevor. The older people get the more blinkered their views become. They will be banging on about Victorian values shortly,mark my words.

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 55-60

Current location (optional) Harrogate

Peter, would you be prepared to tie the blindfold for the hanging or execution by firing squad or perhaps throw the switch that incinerates a person alive? Because if you wouldn't then I don't think you have the right to expect anyone else to do it for you in the vague hope and unproven belief that it will deter others from involvement in vicious crime. There have been far too many errors made, even in our lifetimes, with judicial murders. And that really is the point. Just because it is sanctioned by law (which is more or less arbitrary anyway and can change at someone's whim tomorrow) an execution is still a murder. It diminishes not only the individual who enacts it but is an indictment of the whole society that decrees and approves it. Recourse to capital punishment is an admission of outright failure, as is torture, flogging, heavy policing - the stuff of totalitarianism. Having said all that, there is never any shortage of torturers and executioners whenever they are legitimised by a society's laws. What, exactly, is the difference between the torturer and the tortured, the executioner and executed? Wherein lies the virtue of the former as opposed to the guilt of the latter? Anger about violent crime is one thing - and clearly we all feel it - but corporal and capital punishment are not the answer.

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 1951-58

With the increasing number of incomers, we will shortly all be subject to Shariah Law anyway.

C'est la vie

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 50 - 55

Current location (optional) KEIGHLEY

Thank you ,Doug, for a well reasoned answer to the points I made about making the punishment "fit the crime". I cannot disagree with the morality of your argument in a moral world. However,once someone has acted outside the bounds of the moral code it is sometimes necessary to take non-moral action.
I used the extreme examples earlier to illustrate this. Taking up your point, asking someone to take someone else's life for the safety of others,has been practised throughout history--it is called war. I,and presumably most of of you,thought it was right to send hundreds of thousands of servicemen to kill other men and women in the many wars we have had in order to defend our families and way of life. In doing so we moved outside arbitrary, i.e. man-made laws, into the realm of the law of the jungle, the only one to apply in these circumstances. Interestingly, we are now experiencing the consequences of both the two natural,non arbitrary, laws which are immutable---the aforesaid ( dealing with the rise of fundamental Islam) and the law of supply and demand( the current financial crisis).
You brought up a good subject for this forum, Chris, any more?

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 41/46

Current location (optional) Isle of Man

My generation inherited a right mess. Only history will tell what we leave behind. When I think back over the past history of the UK, I cannot identify a period whose people could proudly claim with justification that they were bequeathing a "thornless" bed of roses, the basis of a future perfect. On close examination of most of such "bequests", there are to be found the weed seeds of future difficulties some of which have reseeded themselves through the centuries. Occasionally problems bequeathed present unforeseen opportunity. I think an emotional problem recent generations suffer has been the personal need they have to make everything right for their children. There's more to spoiling the child than sparing the rod; try over-indulgence for a start.

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 52-60

Current location (optional) Lincoln

On a related issue, this thread has given me some trouble because of the deterioration in the techniques employed by some posters. My awareness may be at fault but hitherto these columns appear to have been used by KBGS former pupils to recall their school experiences and jolly up their former colleagues. All points of view have been displayed. Threads have now started to develop into debates as viewpoints are challenged or disputed. No problem. In my (albeit limited) academic, professional and political experience, an opponent's jugular was always to be found in their argument and not in themselves. Some recent postings have been insinuation, implying personal short-comings or weaknesses in other posters whose views they did not like. "Like" is the word because nothing other than disapproval was used to criticise another's view.I would prefer to see an argument taken apart rather than the person posing it - or his age.

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 52-60

Current location (optional) Lincoln

Just read your last posting,Terry, particularly "Some recent postings have been insinuation,implying personal short-comings....." and wondered how you reconciled this with some of your other postings where you use phrases such as
"daft buggars"(sic)
"over indulged kids"
"greedy bastards"
"big bonus b*******s" and
"commission-led jerk" ?

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 55-60

Current location (optional) Harrogate

Here's a true story. In 1957 there was a buzz going around Guardhouse Primary School. There'd been a murder round the corner, in a cul-de-sac off Broster Avenue. At breaktime a group of us headed off to view the scene. The crime had been a stabbing, and the bloodstains could still be seen on the flagstones. So - did bad things happen when we were young? Is the Pope a catholic? And remember, this murder had occurred at a time when our country still thought it a good idea to put murderers to death, despite the public outrage over Timothy Evans, Derek Bentley and Ruth Ellis.
So my plea to the hangers and floggers and folk who think crime and bad people are a recent invention, wise up!
And whilst I'm at it, I really wish the webmaster would rule on utterances, however veiled, that are racist. Whilst I've met a whole bunch of unpleasant white people in my 62 years (most of them hangers, floggers and racists), I must say I've never yet met an unpleasant black or asian person - not that they don't exist (all races have them, because people are people)- just that I've not encountered any. If you don't like where you live, move.

You may disagree, Alec, with how I expressed some of my views which you quoted - (and happy I am that you should) - but you didn't. (You asked me to reconcile them with my comments above.) However,what you quoted were not my criticisms (overt or implied ) of other posters' views. They were merely random, crass expressions of my opinions on other matters. Nevertheless, I am firm in belief that one line "put-downs" of other posters will lead to a drying up of contributions - which are not of the most plentiful even on a good day. Not every Old Keighlian revels in being stigmatized for his opinion - and we should keep our forum as user-friendly for as many of our old boys as we can - because I want to read their stuff.

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 52-60

Current location (optional) Lincoln

The Python writers often wrapped up sketches through a voiceover which would say: 'This sketch is getting silly'. Then the big foot would come down. Similarly, this topic is becoming silly and has strayed far from the forum's concept of postings generally related to KBGS. I think perhaps you're all pining for the fjords.

That previous post is from me. Don't know what happened to my surname

I think the big foot came down...

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 1951-58

Now when I was a lad, we knew how to handle thugs, we told their mothers

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 58-61

Current location (optional) Blue Mountains, Australia via Haworth

I can take a hint,Paul. I don't need the ceiling to fall on me!

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 55-60

Current location (optional) Harrogate

In the absence of any objective riposte to my propositions --that there is no moral difference to taking life by arbitrary execution and prosecuting war, and that severe (albeit extreme) punishment would work, do I take it that you all agree?

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 41/46

Current location (optional) Isle of Man

Peter, if you are unable to figure the difference then it seems pointless explaining it to you.
There are a number of ripostes to your theme, you have chosen to ignore them.

No.

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 55-60

Current location (optional) Harrogate

Peter - I think you can take it that very few reasonable, civilised people would agree with you or even understand where you're coming from. What they probably would agree is that all this has sod all to do with KBGS, which is what this forum is supposed to be about. If you want to broadcast your unpleasant views, please do it elsewhere.

Peter, as a retired Australian Army Officer with considerable military experience I can assure you that there is a world of moral difference between "taking life by arbitrary execution and prosecuting war". The prosecution of war is undertaken according to rules of engagement and various conventions that hold the combatants responsible for their actions. The combatants are fully aware of their responsibilities and the Nuremberg Defence cuts no ice whatsoever. Don't tell me that soldiers are on a par with mere thugs.

Captain John de Fraine Felvus ASM (retired)

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 58-61

Current location (optional) Haworth via Blue Mountains Australia

As an ex-K.B.G.S.pupil I know only too well what "weapons of mass discipline"mean in that instution. But the outside society we all live in today seems to outlaw "discipline" as we knew it. So come on you K.B.G.S. posters and let us have the benefit of your experience !

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 59-66

Current location (optional) HAWORTH

Picture two scenarios--two employees of the state squint along the barrels of their rifles, aim carefully and pull the trigger. Result--an enemy of their state is removed. The first is a British soldier in Afghanistan, the second is a member of a firing squad in a state that sanctions capital punishment; for the life of me, I cannot see the moral difference.

Contrary to the perception of some correspondents I am a reasonable man and open to persuasion by powerful argument, but so far what I seem to get are statements ?

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 41/46

Current location (optional) Isle of Man

The last sentence should have read "I am open to powerful argument or threat of severe punishment"

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 41/46

Current location (optional) Isle of Man

Blow me! I go away for a holiday and miss all this excitement.... a few quick comments.
1. There was a murder in Keighley when we were kids. A young woman's body was found in the public toilets near the bottom of Goulbourne Street (I think they've been demolished since) but I can't recall which year or if anyone was charged. And we used to regularly take a detour away from the top of Low Street of a night when the Teds were at it.
2. Allan's comments roughly represent my views though I HAVE met unpleasant people from all ethnic groups.
3. I expected that the reports Chris posted would all be about Keighley and Skipton but not so. Little to indicate mass wanton violence stalking the streets of K & S any more than anywhere else.
4. Human Rights Legislation. Bernard - like it or loathe it this isn't a child of the EU. This legislation is contained in an Act of the parliament of the UK, so it expresses British notions of Human Rights.

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 58-65

Current location (optional) Leeds

I once went to one of Ian Dewhirst's lectures on old Keighley. He maintains that the town has always been a place with high immigration, low wages and above average criminality.
He told some belting tales!

Reading through your entries again Peter I've come to the conclusion that you're simply stirring the pot for the sake of it.

At last!

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 41/46

Current location (optional) Isle of Man

Peter, have you been confusing mischief night with April Fools day?

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 52-60

Current location (optional) Lincoln

Is that a "one line put-down"?

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 55-60

Current location (optional) Harrogate

Worrying court case last week reported in the T@A. A Keighley Santander bank employee sent to prison for passing on customer bank details to fraudsters. I think he lived in the Lawkholme lane area. Its not the first time in recent years I have read about such a criminal act. At one time it was completely unknown in West Yorkshire.

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 1961-68

Current location (optional) Ireland

Here he is. What a nice and helpful cultural addition to our Keighley and West Yorkshire community -- courtesy of the T@A.

A MEMBER of a bank's anti-fraud team has been jailed after selling customer card details to a gang of con artists operating across the country.

Bilal Abbas, 30, of Park Lane, Keighley, was jailed for two years for his part in a sophisticated scam that saw fraudsters pocket more than £90,000 in cash and purchased goods.

A court was told how Abbas used his position in Santander’s anti-fraud team to secure the card details of customers while verifying their account details.

He would then sell that information to his associate Umair Memon, 28, of Briarwood, Shipley, who would use it to purchase high-value goods by telephone under a fake name.

Just what modern Britain needs to bolster confidence in UK banking and ethnic communities.....

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 1961-68

Current location (optional) Harrogate

Whoops!
You seem to have overlooked Jordan Hamilton-Thomas.

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 1958-65

Current location (optional) Leeds

Nope I did not. That type of crime starts with a corrupt bank employee. And which ethnic group do they usually come from. Oh well you know the rest if you live in West Yorkshire. Or better still just scan the T@A for convicted fraudsters....the evidence is there. Mind you I do think the current bank/building society fraud sentencing is rather feeble. A bank fraud should be a whacking 10 year sentence not two pathetic years.

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 1961-68

Current location (optional) Harrogate

Seems worth checking out. They all got 2 years (well, Hamilton-Thomas got an extra 2 months but that was probably for resisting arrest). Looks like the judge reckoned they were equally to blame. What "everybody knows" is not always the case. It may or may not be but I don't have the full data. Reports of anything in the T&A are likely to refer to a significant number people of Asian ancestry. A few years ago someone mentioned to me the "fact" that there were lots of murders in Leeds. It was a hot-spot. So, I kept notes of all such reports in the Yorkshire Post for the next year. There were more murders committed in Harrogate than in Leeds so, given the much smaller population of Harrogate, the rate in Harrogate was many times that of Leeds. Driven by the data, like Boris Johnson pretends to be.

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 1958-65

Current location (optional) Leeds

Going back to Chris' original post, "War hero battered by thugs" - there was a report in the Yorkshire Post some years ago about an assault and the headline was "Man battered at chip shop".

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 1958-65

Current location (optional) Leeds

More murders in Harrogate than Leeds. Come off it. Pye in the sky Shaun surely. Whats the stats?

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 1961-68

Current location (optional) Steeton

Oh dear, I hadn't realised we were still at school. Must be 60 years or so since I heard any name-calling. Got rid of my blazer in the 60s.
I suspect what is meant is "Where's the data?" (Statistics being the mathematical analysis of data). The data is in the files of the Yorkshire Post. You could look it up. Around 2010, I think it was.
Oh, by the way, where's the data to support the assertion that certain ethnic groups perpetrate a great proportion of the bank fraud. The assertion mat be valid but, hey, point me to the date. I can do the "stats".

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 1958-65

Current location (optional) Leeds

Home office crime stats for 2020 reveal Cleveland is most dangerous region followed by West Yorkshire. Oh well no surprise there. But the good news is North Yorkshire is the safest region in UK. Which of course includes Harrogate. Rather than far away Cornwall, Devon and Somerset -- or some southerly location. Too much cider drinking down there I suspect.

I don't suppose the safety aspect of lovely Harrogate would have pleased murder expert and crime writer Agatha Christie. She hid in a hotel in Harrogate for a while in the thirties to escape an unhappy marriage. And to write another book The national newspapers unleashed an army of reporters to find her. To no avail.

Subsequently she suddenly revealed herself and her sojourn was over in tranquil Harrogate -- and she was returning to her home in Dorset and her feckless husband. It was all over the front pages back in the day.

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 1961-68

Current location (optional) Steeton

Glad to see that the name-calling has been dropped, Phil.
I don't question your report data from 2020. I was referring to some time around 2010 and, specifically, Harrogate rather than North Yorkshire as a whole. You're perfectly entitled to think that I got it wrong when I looked at the published reports in the YP 10 years ago or so. I could check back but it would take ages. Feel free to think that I made it up - but I didn't.
I have been thinking about looking for the data related to bank fraud that you referred to. It is complicated by the need to know not just the ethnicities of those committing these frauds, but also the proportion of ethnicities of bank employees who would be in positions where they could do this. I can't see any way of getting that data. The old statistician in me would like to be able to either corroborate or counter your theory with analysis, but I can't see a way of approaching the problem.
In the meantime I think we'll have to go on how we each "feel" about the situation. Not a scientific way deal with approaches to criminal justice however.

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 1958-65

Current location (optional) Leeds

Seems to have worked ok for Trump, Shaun...

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 1951-58

Current location (optional) Keswick, Cumbria

Perhaps it would have helped, Shaun, if you'd said that your data was 10/11 years out of date.😉

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 55/60

Current location (optional) Harrogate

I did, Alec. Initially I said a few years ago. Later, when I tried to recall the details, I worked out that it was around 10 years ago. That doesn't make it out of date. It is simply a snapshot at a specific time, just like the result of the last general election or when Leeds United won the First Division.

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 1958-65

Current location (optional) Leeds

😉

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 55/60

Current location (optional) Harrogate