Hey! (hey) You! (you) Get offa my cloud:

3. The Rolling Stones (53)

Thus making our finalists:

Bob Dylan (47)
The Beatles (44)

For this final matchup, let’s keep it simple: on your “ballot,” just indicate which of these two artists you want to eliminate.

And let’s all keep cool heads—we’ve seen this matchup informally several times…

The Survivor Final week begins now.

Beatles

Eliminating Bob Dylan

The Cockroaches.

Whom influenced whom more? Bob dylan

Bob Is the winner

Whom influenced whom more? Bob dylan

Bob Is the winner

Bye bye love, bye bye happiness (Bye bye beatles)

Phony Beatlemania has bitten the dust

Eliminate: The Beatles

You're going to have a fun time trying to figure out whose eliminating and who's saying they should stay Schleuse...

I'm not confused about anybody so far, John, but yeah, you're right...I'd appreciate it if our remaining voters could be very specific, like this:

I AM ELIMINATING BOB DYLAN.

This is my ballot, by the way. I really AM eliminating Bob.

I have the utmost respect for Dylan. The peak he hit in 1965 has never been matched by anybody in any other 12-month period in rock history, the Beatles included. Also, he's the finest lyricist of the 20th century. Also, he's the only artist of his generation who is still recording good music now.

Claims that he's a one-trick pony, or that he released a lot of junk in the 1980's, or that he "couldn't sing," will get no backing from me.

I've given this some thought...here's the thing about the Beatles: they had one of the finest recording careers of any artist, using their very great songwriting ability, performing ability, personal charisma, and studio wizardry.

Bob had all of those...except the last. He distrusted (still distrusts) studio effects. And maybe, in his idiom, he's right to do so.

If you think that studio effects are just bells and whistles and fluff, if you think they merely detract from artistic expression, why, then, yes, Bob's your man.

But if you think (as I do) that studio effects can be used, just like songwriting and musicianship, as a tool for creating great records, without dismissing them as necessarily phony or dishonest, then I think the Beatles are the obvious choice...

Bob could never have made "Strawberry Fields" or "I Am the Walrus." It's a limitation he chose, and I respect that. But the Beatles' horizons were wider.

Eliminating The Beatles

Simply because they've never had much for lyrics. Also The Beatles never made a song as strong as Mr. Tambourine Man, Like a Rolling Stone, Blowin in the Wind, Subterranean Homesick Blues or Desolation Row.

Ok, the final confrontation we all have been expecting:

I AM ELIMINATING THE BEATLES.
Sure the Beatles made wonderful music, but I can listen to H61R or Blonde on Blonde from start to finish whereas I have to press forward when I encounter “Yellow Submarine” or “Octopu’s Garden”.

Dylan is the only artist to have 4 albums in my personal TOP 30. And is still releasing good albums 40 years after the “golden age” of modern music. So those are in general my reasons.

Holy cow, I just realized the significance of H61R's username...color me stupid.

BTW, about ten years ago, when I was still doing such things, I drove the eponymous U.S. Highway 61 from New Orleans to Duluth. If anybody has a free week (and enough spinach to pay for the gas in 2008), I recommend it.

(It's not the best long-distance old U.S. Highway, but it's in the top five...)

I am voting to eliminate Bob Dylan.

Dylan

Dylan

Dylan

Eliminate Bob

I'm sure you don't even need me to post, but after much pondering I've decided to..

*drumroll*

eliminate the Beatles!

Eliminate Dylan

That sounds so harsh...

The Beatles can take their yellow submarine back to shore.

I am eliminating Black Sabbath again... it seems to me they should go out twice before I send away Bob Dylan for a first time.

All right, fine, with a heavy heart I elimnate Bob Dylan.

With a huge amount of joy I find myself being - even though it's only Tuesday - the TENTH person here to be saying ELIMINATE BOB EFFING AWFUL DYLAN!

Thankyou, it's been a pleasure!

Was that really necessary Mr. Marx?

. rejected, obviously. no more perm on blonde.

Beatles are dead, man, miss 'em, miss 'em.

Nah. Their new single is coming out this year.

beatles

Goodbye Beatles!

I hope people "got" my Beatles joke. You know, the one where I cast my vote for them? *Backs out of the room quietly*

Good Choice

Bob Dylan > John + George + Paul + Ringo

Remember,Dylan did this all himself vs. The Beatles who there were 4 of plus George Martin was a crucial part of their success...

Eliminate Bob Dylan

Dylan on the Beatles- They were doing things nobody was doing. Their chords were outrageous, just outrageous, and their harmonies made it all valid." They were pointing in the direction of music."

Roger McGuinn of The Byrds says that The Beatles used folk rock chords and put it into pop rock which had never been done before, and he said that they invented folk rock music without even knowing it! He started to play a 12 inch string guitar soon after he saw and heard George Harrison playing one in The Beatles film A Hard Day's Night in 1964!

The Beatles were the reason folkies went the folk rock route and that was just folk rock. I respect Dylan but the Beatles chord progressions and melodies are much more inventive than Dylan. The Beatles melodies, lyrics or chord progressions were written by the Beatles, George Martin was not involved in those areas of the Beatles music.

Dylan had nothing to do with progressive rock, proto-metal, avant rock, jangle pop, power pop or much of todays pop music . I am not insulting Dylan but those are the plain facts.

Chords are overrated.

Chords are not overrated and I play the guitar. The Beatles had an innate ability to mesh melodies with unusual chord progressions. The Stones and others were using simple blues based chord progressions.

Dylan should go. Studying them both musically the Beatles win hands down.

The music I like the most is progressive rock and the Beatles psychedelic period was a big influence on the start of Progressive Rock. The thing is songs like "Tomorrow Never Know", "Rain" and "She Said She Said" is nothing like what Chuck Berry or Buddy Holly were recording in the 50's. All three of those songs are influenced by Indian music in different ways. It influenced the section of Progressive Rock bands that were more influenced by the Beatles psychedelic music than say jazz or blues music like Pink Floyd, The Moody Blues, Nice, and Procul Harum

"Tomorrow Never Knows" the use of Stockhausen styled tape loop based on I-VII chord progression over a tambour drone. Most of the song is on one chord. No choruses or refrains.

"Rain" is also based on a drone with an outro that is backward but related to the song,

"She Said She Said lyrics based on an acid trip, strange accents on the drums. The song is in true Mixolydian mode that is totally influenced Indian music. One of many of the Beatles songs that could be called Psych-Indian Modal songs.

The Beatles were using 5/4 time signatures "Within You Without You", section in contrasting section , alternating meters and bizarre mixed meters in its rock context on Revolver and Sgt Pepper before the Nice and Jethro Tull got around to them in 1968-1969.

Of course jazz musicians were using mixed time signatures but even jazz music is reliant on the common 4/4 time signature.

Musically it's not close. The Beatles win

Rocking the Classics: English Progressive Rock and the Counterculture

Reuben & The Jets: "Dylan should go. Studying them both musically the Beatles win hands down."

More like: "The Beatles should go. Studying them both lyrically and in consistincy Bob Dylan wins hand down."

H61R then Dylan should have been a writer and not a musician. Lyrics are not musical. Melody and chord progressions are. Never got Dylan anyway and not musically influenced by him. The Stones music was a simple blues progression type of music.

Just compare what the Beatles were doing on Rubber Soul and Revolver compared to even the Byrds or the Rolling Stones.

"Love You To" is rock music first attempt to emulate a non- Western form in terms of structure and instrumentation. George sitar playing on "Love You To" certainly was an improvement to "Norwegian Wood". On "Tomorrow Never Knows" uses tamboura instead of guitars to create drones. "Tomorrow Never Knows" has a massive drum groove with no drum rolls. It uses avant influenced musique concrete tape loops or sampling constructed by the Beatles to create a time distortion effect. The guitar solo is backwards another first in rock music. Automatic Double Tracking another innovation was invented on the suggestion of John Lennon. It also based on one chord basically unheard of in rock music. "Eleanor Rigby" song in Dorian Mode with no rock instruments with just strings and vocals. "Rain" has slow tempos with a thick sound and the backward guitar passages on Revolver influenced the Byrds Younger than Yesterday.



But backed to Rubber Soul it has rock first released version with the sitar. "Norwegian Wood" technique of using the sitar that echoes the melody is copied by Brian Jones on "Paint it Black". "Think For Yourself" uses two bases one regular and the other with fuzz distortion that acts as a lead guitar. "Norwegian Wood" and "If I Needed Someone" both songs use modal harmony with folk and Indian influences. "Girl" and "Michelle" guitar timbres are altered by the use of capo. "Nowhere Man" is psychedelic pop. Then psychedelic pop was not even a genre yet. I really like to find out who was doing this rock music.

Man give it a rest if you guys want to defend Dylan on the case of lyrics then go ahead. The Beatles musically piss all over Dylan. The Beatles really started folk rock if you really ask the Byrds or the Grateful Dead.

Guys, haven't you already been through this?

And please respect each other's opinions. If there was a right and wrong we wouldn't be playing this game.

Haha, I was wondering how long it would take. You guys make me laugh.

All the Beatles fans (especially those with a lot to say about their work!) should start voting in Beatles Survivor! We reached the top 50 today and anybody who hasn't been voting is welcome to join and feel free to leave comments on the songs.

It's really not worth it to compare and tear apart two musical greats, why not praise them in a thread that is meant to do just that? It's the perfect place make your acclamations!

Chelsea, why do you say the same things over and over - with exactly the same words even? We're not retards, and we don't have short memory spans either; we've seen you say them before.

Moreover, half of all acclaimed artists on this site were just as special as The Beatles were, using your criteria.

I also play the guitar and I still think chords are overrated.

If you guys think the Beatles are so musically amazing, why don't you look into the world of jazz? Miles Davis, Thelonious Monk, Charles Mingus, John Coltrane, et al, were miles ahead of the Beatles in terms of musical sophistication and complexity. Where are they in this contest? Nowhere. Why? Because there aren't any words. So don't tell me that words aren't important.

Also, if you read Dylan's lyrics they don't make good literature. What makes them good is the way they fit in with the music. They're lyrics, not poetry.

One more thing: I may be a total idiot by most Beatlemaniac standards, but I've also listened to a ton of music in my life and I find Bob Dylan's sonic offerings a lot more interesting, mature, and engaging than the Beatles pop tunes. Just one dope's opinion.

I apologize for contributing to the unresolvable argument. But I feel better getting it off my chest.

Eliminate Bob Dylan

Those arguing that Dylan accomplished more because he did it solo have a valid argument but in the end I find the musical complexity one more seductive. Probably because I'm a big Phil Spector/Brian Wilson fan. Production values DO matter.

Apologies, Henrik. I get all riled up now and then.

No one says The Beatles piss on Dylan and gets away with it.


H61R then Dylan should have been a writer and not a musician.


And you should have had a brain instead of a moustache.

Alright, here's what: how about mixing lyrics and music? Imagine how it would be like to have both! Wouldn't it be neat, do ya think?


Lyrics are not musical.


O RLY? You try reading them out loud.


Melody and chord progressions are.


Any moron with a piano can do melody and chord progressions. All you have to do is think: "hey, I'm gonna try ta make a new sound this time; no more repeating myself, eh, eh?".

You think a song like "Yesterday" is that great? It's about as good as, say, the Plain White T's "Hey There Delilah" - and that's not that good.


Never got Dylan anyway and not musically influenced by him.


Who, you?


The Stones music was a simple blues progression type of music.


Yeah? Say that to "Paint It, Black", or "Under My Thumb", or "Ruby Tuesday", or all of "Between the Buttons". And covers or not, they were better than what The Beatles were at.

And when they had the impetus to write their own songs - which, I agree with you, The Beatles preceded them in, just like everyone else before The Beatles preceded The Beatles too - they made great songs. I wish I'd have seen The Beatles do something like "Play With Fire".

And afterwards, for four albums, they took country and blues and did them really great - like The White Album except cooler.


Just compare what the Beatles were doing on Rubber Soul and Revolver compared to even the Byrds or the Rolling Stones.


The Byrds were a sort of Rubber-Soul-all-of-the-time, except less tuneless.

What was Rubber Soul anyway? A bit of folk (plenty where they took that from) mixed with French influences. Big deal, man.

1965, by the way, was the year Sun Ra was releasing "The Magic City" and "Heliocentric Worlds Vol. 2".

But no one cares, because Sun Ra wasn't The Beatles.


"Love You To" is rock music first attempt to emulate a non- Western form in terms of structure and instrumentation.


If you liked The Kinks a little more, I bet you would stop with that.


"Tomorrow Never Knows" has a massive drum groove with no drum rolls. It uses avant influenced musique concrete tape loops or sampling constructed by the Beatles to create a time distortion effect. The guitar solo is backwards another first in rock music.


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA


Automatic Double Tracking another innovation was invented on the suggestion of John Lennon.


The invention of which took about as much intelligence ("using two recorders at once? eureka!") as changing bed sheets.

Also, the Backstreet Boys used all sorts of vocal modifications with ProTools (as does everyone nowadays, but the point is , therefore the Backstreet Boys are at least on par with The Beatles in this respect.


It also based on one chord basically unheard of in rock music.


It takes smarts to use one chord instead of, say, two.

I'd never use one chord myself - I like variety. But hey, suit yourself.


"Eleanor Rigby" song in Dorian Mode with no rock instruments with just strings and vocals.


Yes, exactly. You see, it's not a rock song at all. It's a string song, like the music of many decades before.

"Ah! But the COURAGE to do such a thing!"

Akin to the courage of a man to sit on the toilet instead of standing up when doing you-know-what. That level of experimentation.


"Rain" has slow tempos with a thick sound and the backward guitar passages on Revolver influenced the Byrds Younger than Yesterday.


Slow tempos. Thick sound. Druggies' favorite record-playing trick for a century. Mix them all: genius.


But backed to Rubber Soul it has rock first released version with the sitar. "Norwegian Wood" technique of using the sitar that echoes the melody is copied by Brian Jones on "Paint it Black".


The Kinks' "See My Friends"? No?


"Think For Yourself" uses two bases one regular and the other with fuzz distortion that acts as a lead guitar.


Now do this for every song ever released in the 60's or earlier by anyone else. You'll get far.


"Norwegian Wood" and "If I Needed Someone" both songs use modal harmony with folk and Indian influences. "Girl" and "Michelle" guitar timbres are altered by the use of capo.


Big. F-ing. Deal.

Same for your other posts.


"Nowhere Man" is psychedelic pop. Then psychedelic pop was not even a genre yet.


No, "Nowhere Man" is not psychedelic pop. Why? Because I say so. And I know better than you. Therefore, you lose.

Something like The Tornados' "Telstar" from 1962 was psychedelic pop - but it wasn't The Beatles, so you don't care.


Man give it a rest


Why don't you give it a rest? Why does it always have to be us?


The Beatles really started folk rock if you really ask the Byrds or the Grateful Dead.


And many people started much better genres while they were at it. Lost, lost - in the annals of history!

The Byrds: "Oh! We like The Beatles. And Bob Dylan! Those are the cool guys. We wanna be like them! Wait, wait... Why don't we MIX them? And blame it on The Beatles, claiming they started folk-rock? That should work!"


if you guys want to defend Dylan on the case of lyrics then go ahead. The Beatles musically piss all over Dylan.


"Highway 61 Revisited", "Blonde On Blonde" are musically better than The Beatles' circus tricks. Mind his voice though? Fair enough. I mind The Beatles' schoolboy harmonies too.

Additionally, albums like "Blood On The Tracks" or "Desire" are cases of Rubber-Soul-done-right!

Moreover, Dylan's reach on the human condition (not that the human condition is that much of a fuss), as exemplified in songs like "I Shall Be Released", or "Knockin' On Heaven's Door", means he was actually sayin' stuff instead of messin' around.

The Beatles? "All you need is love"? Followed by "there's nothing you can do that can't be done"? One hell of a meaningless message. "You can't do much, really, but you can be yourself, all you need is love".

And. "The Basement Tapes" are cooler than "The White Album". There. I said it.

And Dylan's last three albums are as good and varied as "Abbey Road". If not, three great albums still count more.

Why don't you go say how great Pink Floyd or anyone else were? They're no less worthy than The Beatles, you know, whatever the argument you bring up may be.


Dylan had nothing to do with progressive rock, proto-metal, avant rock, jangle pop, power pop or much of todays pop music .


Hello? Neither did The Beatles, remember?

Somewhere deep inside I love The Beatles too, out of deep nostalgia, but every post you make makes me hate them more.

It's about as good as, say, the Plain White T's "Hey There Delilah" - and that's not that good.

I kinda like that song.

I think we can all agree that the accomplishments of "Achy Breaky Heart" were greater than The Beatles and Dylan combined, so I don't even understand this argument anymore.

Hahaha Mismaiome - I love it when you do those reply posts. One thing I'd disagree with you on is that 'Yesterday' isn't that great. It's my #1 Beatles song - I think it's one of the few songs they recorded with a great message. One of the few that had much meaning without sounding glib and insincere. The Beatles didn't do emotion and that's the thing I dislike the most about them - they don't have much soul. Their attempts at country and blues suck compared to Dylan and the Stones...
John Lennon was cool - the other 3 absolute squares...

One thing I'd disagree with you on is that 'Yesterday' isn't that great.


I disagree with 90% of what I say too, but I say it for a noble cause.

"Dylan had nothing to do with progressive rock, proto-metal, avant rock, jangle pop, power pop or much of todays pop music .


Hello? Neither did The Beatles, remember?"

Apart from A Day In The Life for Prog, Helter Skelter for metal, and so on. Just my tuppence.

But. But. The classical composers did the most for prog-rock!

Also, "metal" was years old by 1968. "Helter Skelter" was not badder than "You Really Got Me".

All genres/styles invented by The Beatles were also invented by The Kinks.

The Kinks should have won this. Interestingly, some months ago I took the full Survivor list (the one we started this game with) to another forum, where I got people to play a quicker version of the same game. The Kinks won.