Welcome to the first official Hall of Acclaim thread! For those of you who are new to this, or who just want a refresher, the HOA is described here.

Based on the feedback from that thread, the two biggest changes to my original proposal for the Hall are:

-Elections will take place over a two-week period (one week of discussion, one week of voting).
-Only four artists inducted per election, rather than five.

Some of you have expressed a desire that we start earlier than 1960. I'm 99% sure that's when I'd like to start, but let's give this one more fair hearing.

I'm about to post the top 50 candidates (by AM ranking) for the 1960 election. Take a look; see if this seems like a reasonable starting point.

Just at a guess, I would predict that, by 1965, about 18-20 artists from before 1960 will be in (and not necessarily the top 20--in fact, I hope not). Perhaps 25 will be in by 1975, and maybe 30-40 by the time we reach the present. That seems about right to me.

Anyway, see what you think.

As promised, here are the top 50 candidates by AM ranking, with only releases through 1959 included. I think the format's pretty self explanatory: up to the top six albums and top six songs for each artist, in chronological order.

(Once again, these are NOT the only eligible candidates; if there's a pre-1960 artist you'd like to vote for, but whom you don't see here, that's OK.)

1. ELVIS PRESLEY (16.71)
ALBUMS: Elvis Presley (120); Elvis (410); Loving You (1505); King Creole (1968); For LP Fans Only (2025); A Date with Elvis (1548).
SONGS: That’s All Right (Mama) (72); Mystery Train (85); Heartbreak Hotel (15); Hound Dog (57); Don’t Be Cruel (92); Jailhouse Rock (203).

2. MILES DAVIS (18.09)
ALBUMS: Birth of the Cool (325); Cookin’ with the Miles Davis Quintet (1146); Miles Ahead (789); Milestones (829); Porgy & Bess (546); Kind of Blue (37).
SONG: So What (664).

3. CHUCK BERRY (18.33)
ALBUMS: After School Session (2077); One Dozen Berrys (1327); Chuck Berry Is on Top (1270).
SONGS: Maybellene (78); Roll Over Beethoven (487); Rock and Roll Music (1008); Sweet Little Sixteen (854); Johnny B. Goode (6); Memphis, Tennessee (1370).

4. FRANK SINATRA (18.40)
ALBUMS: In the Wee Small Hours (224); Songs for Swingin’ Lovers (210); A Swingin’ Affair (1178); Come Fly with Me (839); Sings for Only the Lonely (625); Come Dance With Me! (1328)
SONGS: All or Nothing at All (2875); I’ve Got the World on a String (2720); When Your Lover Has Gone (2563); I’ve Got You Under My Skin (933); One for My Baby (1388).

5. BUDDY HOLLY & THE CRICKETS (18.48)
ALBUMS: The Chirpin’ Crickets (329); Buddy Holly (1121).
SONGS: That’ll Be the Day (43); Peggy Sue (104); Everyday (1623); Not Fade Away (647); Rave On (517); It Doesn’t Matter Anymore (2684).

6. LITTLE RICHARD (18.62)
ALBUMS: Here’s Little Richard (382); Little Richard Vol. 2 (2958).
SONGS: Tutti Frutti (28); Long Tall Sally (228); Rip It Up (1496); Lucille (1251); Keep a Knockin’ (2039); Good Golly Miss Molly (245).

7. THELONIOUS MONK (18.64)
ALBUMS: Genius of Modern Music, Vol. 1 (458); Genius of Modern Music, Vol. 2 (714); Brilliant Corners (429); Thelonious Monk with John Coltrane (733); Monk’s Music (1014); Art Blakey’s Jazz Messengers with Thelonious Monk (1528).
SONG: Round Midnight (342).

8. RAY CHARLES (18.93)
ALBUMS: Ray Charles at Newport (1126); The Genius of Ray Charles (696).
SONGS: I’ve Got a Woman (617); Hallelujah, I Love Her So (2347); Lonely Avenue (1004); (The Night Time Is) The Right Time (2442); What’d I Say (27).

9. SONNY ROLLINS (19.01)
ALBUMS: Tenor Madness (1104); Saxophone Colossus (370); Way Out West (891); Night at the Village Vanguard, Vol. 1 (1021); Night at the Village Vanguard, Vol. 2 (1150); Freedom Suite (1407).
SONG: St. Thomas (2551).

10. DUKE ELLINGTON (19.01)
ALBUMS: Ellington Uptown (2442); Ellington at Newport (385); Such Sweet Thunder (1917); Indigos (1864); Side by Side (1823); Anatomy of a Murder (2692).
SONGS: Black and Tan Fantasy (1758); Mood Indigo (691); Take the “A” Train (431); Black, Brown and Beige (1988); In a Sentimental Mood (1531); Diminuendo and Crescendo in Blue (1813).


11. HANK WILLIAMS (19.03)
ALBUMS: none.
SONGS: Lovesick Blues (816); I’m So Lonesome I Could Cry (118); Cold, Cold Heart (1002); Hey Good Lookin’ (946); I’ll Never Get Out of This World Alive (426); Your Cheatin’ Heart (266).

12. ELLA FITZGERALD (19.05)
ALBUMS: Sings the Cole Porter Songbook, Vol. 1 (617); Sings the Rodgers and Hart Songbook, Vol. 1 (888); Ella and Louis (1370); Porgy and Bess (1373); Sings the Duke Ellington Songbook, Vol. 1 (1319); Sings the George and Ira Gershwin Songbook (875).
SONG: A-Tisket, A-Tasket (1097).

13. CHARLES MINGUS (19.07)
ALBUMS: Jazz at Massey Hall (514); Pithecanthropus Erectus (748); The Clown (2790); Blues and Roots (782); Mingus Ah Um (384).
SONGS: none.

14. THE EVERLY BROTHERS (19.12)
ALBUMS: The Everly Brothers (1618); Songs Our Daddy Taught Us (1722).
SONGS: Bye Bye Love (144); Wake Up Little Susie (420); All I Have to Do Is Dream (171); Bird Dog (2183).

15. BO DIDDLEY (19.15)
ALBUMS: Bo Diddley (816); Go Bo Diddley (1349).
SONGS: Bo Diddley (177); I’m a Man (723); Who Do You Love (317).

16. JERRY LEE LEWIS (19.23)
ALBUM: Jerry Lee Lewis (1341)
SONGS: Whole Lotta Shakin’ Goin’ On (64); Great Balls of Fire (124).

17. COUNT BASIE (19.25)
ALBUMS: Count Basie Swings, Joe Williams Sings (1310); April in Paris (1000); At Newport (1447); The Atomic Mr. Basie (657).
SONGS: One O’Clock Jump (865); Lester Leaps In (2182); April in Paris (1447).

18. MUDDY WATERS (19.30)
ALBUMS: none.
SONGS: I Can’t Be Satisfied (2132); Rollin’ Stone (773); Hoochie Coochie Man (282); Mannish Boy (240); Got My Mojo Working (588).

19. DIZZY GILLESPIE (19.32)
ALBUMS: Bird & Diz (1644); Jazz at Massey Hall (514); Dizzy Gillespie with Roy Eldridge (1572); Groovin’ High (1547); Birk’s Works (2360); At Newport (2130).
SONGS: Groovin’ High (2672); A Night in Tunisia (2463); Manteca (1168).

20. BILLIE HOLIDAY (19.32)
ALBUM: Lady in Satin (639)
SONGS: Strange Fruit (111); God Bless the Child (432).

21. JOHNNY CASH (19.37)
ALBUMS: none.
SONGS: Folsom Prison Blues (135); I Walk the Line (93); I Still Miss Someone (2109).

22. JOHN COLTRANE (19.38)
ALBUMS: Blue Train (613); Cattin’ with Coltrane and Quinichette (2903); Soultrane/John Coltrane 2-LP (1844); Giant Steps (305).
SONGS: none.

23. FATS DOMINO (19.40)
ALBUMS: Rock and Rollin’ with Fats Domino (1416); This Is Fats Domino! (2457); The Fabulous Mr. D (2295).
SONGS: Ain’t That a Shame (600); Blueberry Hill (213); Blue Monday (1803); I’m Walkin’ (2168).

24. LOUIS ARMSTRONG (19.46)
ALBUMS: Plays W.C. Handy (1036); Ella and Louis (1370); Ella and Louis Again (2967); Porgy and Bess (1373).
SONG: West End Blues (343).

25. CHARLIE PARKER (19.48)
ALBUMS: Charlie Parker with Strings (1735); Bird & Diz (1644); Jazz at Massey Hall (514).
SONGS: Koko (768); Ornithology (2456).

26. BUD POWELL (19.52)
ALBUMS: The Amazing Bud Powell Vol. 1 (792); Jazz at Massey Hall (514); The Amazing Bud Powell Vol. 2 (2905).
SONG: Un Poco Loco (1616).

27. WOODY GUTHRIE (19.52)
ALBUM: Dust Bowl Ballads (607).
SONG: This Land Is Your Land (163).

28. BILL HALEY AND HIS COMETS (19.54)
ALBUM: Rock Around the Clock (2042).
SONG: (We’re Gonna) Rock Around the Clock (45).

29. ROBERT JOHNSON (19.55)
ALBUMS: none.
SONGS: Come on in My Kitchen (2338); Cross Road Blues (226); Sweet Home Chicago (2238); Terraplane Blues (2280); Hellhound on My Trail (843); Love in Vain (1446).

30. DAVE BRUBECK (19.56)
ALBUMS: Jazz Goes to College (2843); Time Out (324).
SONG: Take Five (730).

31. ART BLAKEY (19.58)
ALBUMS: A Night at Birdland Vol. 1 (1236); A Night at Birdland Vol. 2 (2296); Moanin’ (781); Art Blakey’s Jazz Messengers with Thelonious Monk (1528).
SONGS: none.

32. EDDIE COCHRAN (19.59)
ALBUMS: none.
SONGS: Summertime Blues (79); C’mon Everybody (1210).

33. HOWLIN’ WOLF (19.59)
ALBUM: Moanin’ in the Moonlight (551).
SONG: Smokestack Lightnin’ (367).

34. BIG JOE TURNER (19.60)
ALBUM: The Boss of the Blues (1094).
SONG: Shake, Rattle and Roll (151).

35. BENNY GOODMAN (19.61)
ALBUM: The Famous 1938 Carnegie Hall Concert (513).
SONGS: Sing, Sing, Sing (724); Solo Flight (2007).

36. ORNETTE COLEMAN (19.62)
ALBUMS: Something Else!!! (1861); The Shape of Jazz to Come (315).
SONGS: none.

37. RITCHIE VALENS (19.63)
ALBUMS: none.
SONGS: Donna (788); La Bamba (152).

38. GENE VINCENT (19.64)
ALBUM: Gene Vincent and His Blue Caps (1743).
SONG: Be Bop a Lula (125).

39. CARL PERKINS (19.65)
ALBUMS: none.
SONGS: Blue Suede Shoes (75); Honey Don’t (2859).

40. THE COASTERS (19.65)
ALBUMS: none.
SONGS: Searchin’ (1570); Young Blood (979); Yakety Yak (262).

41. SARAH VAUGHAN (19.66)
ALBUMS: Images/Swingin’ Easy (1298); Sarah Vaughan with Clifford Brown (743); In the Land of Hifi (2239).
SONGS: none.

42. THE PLATTERS (19.67)
ALBUMS: none.
SONGS: The Great Pretender (329); Only You (And You Alone) (750); Smoke Gets in Your Eyes (1984).

43. JOHNNY BURNETTE (19.69)
ALBUM: Johnny Burnette and the Rock ‘n’ Roll Trio (637).
SONG: The Train Kept A-Rollin’ (874).

44. CLIFFORD BROWN (19.70)
ALBUMS: Daahoud/Clifford Brown & Max Roach (1229); Sarah Vaughan with Clifford Brown (743); Study in Brown (1979); At Basin Street (2209).

45. THE DRIFTERS (19.70)
ALBUMS: none.
SONGS: Money Honey (921); There Goes My Baby (269).

46. JACKIE WILSON (19.71)
ALBUMS: none.
SONGS: Reet Petite (The Finest Girl You Ever Want to Meet) (539); Lonely Teardrops (479).

47. FRANKIE LYMON AND THE TEENAGERS (19.72)
ALBUMS: none.
SONGS: Why Do Fools Fall in Love (161); I’m Not a Juvenile Delinquent (2191).

48. LLOYD PRICE (19.72)
ALBUMS: none.
SONGS: Lawdy Miss Clawdy (371); Stagger Lee (1061); Personality (2416); I’m Gonna Get Married (2924).

49. THE CARTER FAMILY (19.74)
ALBUMS: none.
SONGS: Keep on the Sunny Side (1283); Wildwood Flower (846); Can the Circle Be Unbroken (Bye and Bye) (922).

50. LEADBELLY (19.75)
ALBUMS: none.
SONGS: Goodnight Irene (893); The Midnight Special (447).

BUBBLING UNDER: Bing Crosby, Jimmie Rodgers, James Brown, Max Roach, Sam Cooke.

Is this where we start the discussions, or am I jumping the gun? (Hank, Louis, Miles, and Billie - sorry Johnny)

Elvis, Chuck, Sinatra and Hank, I say

I was wondering that same thing, Paul.

Anyway I'd like to give two thumbs up to The Carter Family, the first country music superstar group. They were hugely inspirational, and their music still lives today, both in their own recordings and the countless covers made by country and rock stars ever since.

Yeah, let's do this. No groundswell of opposition to the 1960 starting date appeared yesterday, so let's consider this the discussion thread.

I'll leave the discussion period open for more than a week, since this is will be our first election, and we have a lot of artists to consider. The week of voting for the '60 election will begin on Tuesday, July 1.

A reminder: Remember, you can vote for more than four candidates.

Some thoughts (finally, actual music discussion):

Only three opinions posted so far, but the only artist mentioned more than once is Hank Williams. I agree; Hank gets my first slot. For pre-rock country artists, I think the rankings go like this:

1. Hank
2. Jimmie
3. Carters (yes, Rune, they were fantastic)

The rest? I will definitely be voting for Elvis (problematic as he is in some ways), so that’s two. I’m a rock guy, so my remaining slots will be fought over by such folks as Chuck Berry, Little Richard, Buddy Holly, Johnny Cash, Bo Diddley, Ray Charles, Muddy Waters and Big Joe Turner.

I’m trying to decide whether to include a jazz artist in my top four…if I do, it’ll be Duke Ellington, by a nose over Armstrong (yes, I am that old-fashioned when it comes to jazz…I actually thought about W.C. Handy). Miles and Coltrane and Mingus are all at or near the peak of their careers in 1960, and I figure there will be plenty of time to get them in down the road.

I’ll probably vote for a top ten, then. Besides Hank and Elvis, right now I’m thinking it’ll be filled out by (in no particular order) Chuck, Bo, Duke, Li’l Richard, Buddy, Louis, Ray, and Robert Johnson. With Miles and Jimmie Rodgers bubbling under (cripes, this is tough).

I think this first year I will focus on artists before 1955 because they might be forgotten later on (not by everyone, obviously, but I think the general AM forum population is more into the later half of the 60s and later than anything pre-1955.

Of course that means I'll have to make a case for what I think is the greatest pre-1955 artist (AM almost concurs): Woody Guthrie. Whereas the AM #1 (Hank Williams, who will most certainly be induced this year) was an icon for country, Woody was certainly thé icon for folk. He was so ahead of his time that nobody could rival the album he made in 1940 for a whole 15 years after that. Who beats that? Nobody. And of course, where would Dylan be without him? Or The Kinks, or The Byrds, or, god forbid, The Beatles?

wait, so how many can we vote for? and what scoring system are you using? (sorry if you already went over all this somewhere)

I don't think he already specified it, I was going to ask the same question but I forgot while I was talking about Guthrie.

Greg and Stephan, I went back to check the last thing I said about ballot size, which was:

"I haven’t made up my mind about the size of the ballots. I know I’ll require that you vote for five artists, but I’m thinking about allowing a voter’s option to include ten or twenty if you really want to."

The more I think about that, the less I like it. How about this plan:

Everybody submits a ranked top ten. Scoring is linear: your top choice gets 10 points, your #2 gets 9 points...down to your #10, which gets 1 point. The artists with the top four aggregate point totals are our lucky inductees. (Not fancy, but it'll get the job done.)

(Tiebreak goes to the artist who appears on more ballots, then to the artist with more #1 votes, then #2 votes, and so on.)

Why do I suggest top ten? I think five would make it harder to build consensus--it would make it much more likely that one or two voters could push an idiosyncratic pick into the hall (especially in weak years like the mid-70s and late 90s). And more than ten would just be, frankly, a hideous amount of bookkeeping.

However, since ten IS a lot, I'll stipulate that you only have to explain your top five (but you can explain more if you like, natch).

As always, I'm open to modifying this plan if anyone posts a good idea, but let's try to have ballot size and scoring rules settled by...Tuesday, July 24 (that's one week before voting starts).

Artists I'm considering:

Elvis: I think he's in for sure. Most of my favorite stuff had been released by 1960.

Frank Sinatra: Another one in for sure.

Buddy Holly and the Crickets: In for sure.

Little Richard: In, probably my #1.

Ray Charles: Maybe, but probably not.

Everly Brothers: Very close. Schleuse, are we considering 1960 in this ballot or are we voting on January 1st 1960? Because Cathy's Clown would push them over the hump and would be on my ballot.

Johnny Cash: Probably not. It's tough with these early ones because they only have a few songs to judge them by. Do we give these artists the benefit of the doubt? Because, I don't think anybody post '65 is going to get in on the merit of 3-4 songs. The same could have been said about the Everlys.

Fats Domino: Same thing as Cash and the Everlys. 3-4 classic songs... I don't know if that should be enough and I haven't heard the full albums.

Dave Brubeck: Probably not, although I do love Time Out.

Art Blakely: For sure. Moanin' is my second favorite jazz record so that's enough for me.

Coasters: Maybe. Two other great songs not listed are Poison Ivy and Charlie Brown. Along Came Jones is good too. I'm leaning yes.

Jackie Wilson: Absolutely. It's crazy that his songs aren't more acclaimed. This guy is as good as Sam Cooke in my book. Lonely Teardrops is such a great song.

Lloyd Price: Maybe. If other artists are getting in on the merits of 3-4 great songs I might vote for him because he had 4 really awesome songs.

Sam Cooke: Not yet.

Bobby Darin: Maybe.

"Everly Brothers: Very close. Schleuse, are we considering 1960 in this ballot or are we voting on January 1st 1960? Because Cathy's Clown would push them over the hump and would be on my ballot."

We're on January 1, 1960. Eisenhower is still president, and "Cathy's Clown" won't count until the '61 election.

****

Stephan, your argument for Woody Guthrie is unanswerable, it's just that...well, among "folk" artists from before 1950, I think the cream of the crop is Robert Johnson, Leadbelly, and Blind Willie McTell. That's not what most people think of when they think of folk, I know...

I like Dust Bowl Ballads, and I like the Woodman. But not enough for me to consider him at this point.

There's (at least) one artist that's missing from the list that I would like you to check out, if you're unfamiliar with him: Bill Monroe.

Bill Monroe was a superstar in the world of bluegrass, and probably the one who tied bluegrass and country music together. Most of you know Blue Moon of Kentucky, a song Monroe wrote and recorded with his band, which also included bluegrass legends Lester Flatts and Earl Scruggs.

By 1960 Bill Monroe had recorded lots of now legendary bluegrass songs, even though he at this point had lost some of his popularity.

The clip underneath is apparantly from 1969, so it's a bit new, but it should intrigue the ones of you who likes country or bluegrass music. Please enjoy!

schleuse: I'll give you Leadbelly, although I think he's not quite as good as Woody, but Johnson is blues and Blind Willie McTell never made anything as good as Dust Bowl Ballads in my humble opinion. That said, I quite like Atlanta Twelve String but I haven't heard much else from McTell.

Certainties:

Elvis Presley
Hank Williams
Chuck Berry
Buddy Holly

Here's some discussion:

1. LOUIS ARMSTRONG: The father of modern American Music. A huge personality. An icon. The single most important figure in the historical development of jazz, rivaled only by Duke Ellington, Charlie Parker, and Miles Davis.

2. HANK WILLIAMS: The father of modern country music. The single most important person in the development of the genre. No rivals. An icon.

3. BILLIE HOLIDAY: The jazz singer. One of the two greatest vocalists of the 20th century in terms of interpretation and stylistic influence. An icon.

4. FRANK SINATRA: The other great vocalist of the 20th century. Modernized vocal phrasing. An icon.

5. MILES DAVIS: Took the jazz baton from Louis Armstrong and carried it into the rock era. Responsible for one of the greatest albums of any genre. A jazz icon.

6. THELONIOUS MONK: Eccentric personality. Brilliant composer, which is why he’s on my list. Unique instrumentalist with an engaging style.

7. CHARLES MINGUS: A brilliant man and brilliant composer. Way ahead of his time.

8. BILL MONROE: A lot of people on this web site give a lot of credit to performers who invent musical styles. Bill Monroe is one of the few artists who could make a legitimate claim to actually inventing a style of music. In his case, it was bluegrass. That’s worthy of the top 10 in my book.

9. BOB WILLS: Along with Milton Brown, Bob Wills is the father of Western Swing. Milton Brown died young, so Bob Wills gets all the credit. A Texas icon.

10. BUDDY HOLLY: The link between Hank Williams and The Beatles. Great songwriter. I can’t prove this, but I think he would have been way bigger than Elvis, Chuck, Little Richard, et al if he had survived. He may have followed buddy Waylon Jennings in the outlaw country direction. He may have competed with the Beach Boys for supremacy of American pop music. He may have even gone in the same direction as Dylan. Buddy Holly was only 22 years old when he died. (Hank Williams was 29). His career lasted only 18 months. The fact that he is even on this list is a testament to his achievement and potential. Definitely an icon. (And before somebody corrects me by pointing out that we aren’t voting for potential, I get that. I just wanted to write about Buddy this way, because that’s how I see Buddy.)

Paul, I'm glad to see you give credit to Bill Monroe. Hopefully more people will check out his stuff. I've just played through his greatest hits cd, and there are many mountain music gems there.

Did you play that youtube link I posted above? It's a magnificent song, and I believe I placed it in my top 30 songs when we did that poll.

Paul, out of curiosity, why Satchmo but not the Duke?

I agree with you about Buddy Holly, by the way. You ever notice that almost none of the standard 1950's rock icons did anything groundbreaking after about 1964? James Brown's about the only exception I can think of...Elvis and Cash did have later success, but for the most part they were doing the same kinds of things they did in the fifties (well, except for the American Recordings, but I don't think those were groundbreaking, although they were good).

Buddy could have been an exception. It's impossible to know what would have happened, but his career makes three things clear:

1. He was very driven.

2. He surrounded himself with great musicians (the Crickets were a hell of a band).

3. His discography, tiny as it is, fairly sparkles with inventiveness and wit. He was the finest rock songwriter of the late fifties.

That looks to me like a profile of somebody who could have held his own with the Beatles in the 1960's.

Schleuse,

Just to clarify, those aren't my official votes. Just 10 points of discussion. That's why I mention Charlie Parker and Duke Ellington in my Armstrong comments. Ellington is certainly huge.

It could be just my personal taste, but I think Armstrong was more modern than Ellington. Both played in and were the leaders bands, but I think of Armstrong as more of the soloist where Ellington was more of the orchstra leader. Certainly Ellington's compositions were superior. But Armstrong's instrumental style was more influential, I think, and has carried more over into current musical styles. Also Armstrong had a larger than life personality and was a real ambassador for jazz music during his life.

On Buddy Holly, I think your three points are exactly why he would have been huge. To have so much talent and drive and to succeed so much at such a young age with music that has remained popular for fifty years is truly amazing. His career could have taken so many different trajectories, but it’s a safe bet he would have produced brilliant music.

Being from West Texas, heavily inspired by Hank Williams, and a friend of Waylon Jennings, I think he would have skewed a bit to the country side of things, especially once country music became electrified (like Johnny Cash, Buck Owens, Jerry Lee Lewis), but he had the songwriting chops, commercial drive, and pop sensibilities to compete with the Beach Boys and Beatles. Maybe he would have beat both the Beatles and Gram Parsons to “country rock” but done it in his own way? And who knows how the sixties would have changed his approach. Can you picture him with long hair?

Rune,

I was in such a hurry that I didn’t even notice your post dedicated to Bill Monroe. Excellent! I enjoyed the video. Anyway, it looks like we both came up with the same idea, so that's a good sign. Any other bluegrass fans out there?

[Crickets chirping…]

Well, if there are, there’s a nice little blurb about Bill Monroe’s role in the invention of bluegrass over at this blog posting: http://oldbluebus.blogspot.com/2008/03/bluegrass-traditional.html

About Buddy Holly and the west Texas thing: you know Lubbock is actually closer to Albuquerque than to Dallas or Austin?

My point is that Lubbock is in New Mexico's orbit almost as much as Texas'. I kind of picture Buddy picking up a Latino influence along the way and sounding something like a cross between Gram Parsons and Los Lobos...

That's a good point. He started recording in Clovis New Mexico and his wife was Puerto Rican, so I could see the Latino influence. Heck, Richie Valens was killed in the same crash. Maybe they would have teamed up...

if we are in 1960 and oure core music is rock, we have to vote for Elvis first.
He was the absolute reference both for rock'n rollers in the '50s but also for every pop performer in the 1960s when the record companies managed to water down rock'n roll.
As a symbol, he's the first.

Then there is Bill Haley.
As AMG says,

Bill Haley is the neglected hero of early rock & roll. Elvis Presley and Buddy Holly are ensconced in the heavens, transformed into veritable constellations in the rock music firmament, their music respected by writers and scholars as well as the record-buying public, virtually every note of music they ever recorded theoretically eligible for release. And among the living rock & roll pioneers, Chuck Berry is given his due in the music marketplace and by the history books, and Bo Diddley is acknowledged appropriately in the latter, even if his music doesn't sell the way it should. Yet Bill Haley — who was there before any of them, playing rock & roll before it even had a name, and selling it in sufficient quantities out of a small Pennsylvania label to attract attention from the major labels before Presley was even recording in Memphis — is barely represented by more than a dozen of his early singles, and recognized by the average listener for exactly two songs among the hundreds that he recorded; and he's often treated as little more than a glorified footnote, an anomaly that came and went very quickly, in most histories of the music. The truth is, Bill Haley came along a lot earlier than most people realize and the histories usually acknowledge, and he went on making good music for years longer than is usually recognized.

Personally, I would vote in that first ballot for the real first rockers rather than for pre-rock performers.

that's why I picked Elvis and Bill Haley, to whom I would add Chuck Berry (the living link between Chicago blues and rock'n roll)and Fats Domino (hugely influential in R&B, he was the one who made the New Orleans sound popular).

He was so ahead of his time that nobody could rival the album he made in 1940 for a whole 15 years after that. Who beats that? Nobody. And of course, where would Dylan be without him? Or The Kinks, or The Byrds, or, god forbid, The Beatles?


Ahead of his time? 2 things to consider:

1) The album is pretty awful.
2) Of course no one had albums back then, because no one had albums back then in the first place. Him having one was a freak accident - if others had had the idea to even attempt albums, surely they'd have done pretty well, but they weren't even trying. And what's an album, really, if not just a collection of songs? Collect someone else's songs from that time, and see them beat Woody's horridly boring songs about dust.
3) It's not an album (like I said, didn't have those then), just a collection of songs released at the same time as singles that were later on retroactively gathered and called an album.
4) All he was doing was recording something that people had been singing informally about since the dawn of human civilization. Seriously, folks, the beginning of the last century wasn't the dark ages.

Sorry, Dylan may have liked him - but he was so boring, when singing about dust anyway.


In any case, someone please consider Bessie Smith. I know she's from so far back that no one cares about her (started recording in 1923), but she inspired Billie Holiday more than anyone, and she was almost as great.

If Robert Johnson was the king of the blues, she was the queen.

I probably won't be voting for Haley, nicolas, but I see your point. My impression of him is that he was a western swing bandleader (in the midwest, no less) who started playing R&B. That's a credible rock & roll pedigree. The Comets were a hot, fun band, and, iirc, I was one of the few defenders of "Rock Around the Clock" in bracketology.

However, there's a fairly substantial crowd of pre-Elvis artists who could fairly claim to be rock: Jackie Brenston, Muddy Waters, Big Joe Turner, and so on. Haley and Elvis, for reasons that are ugly to contemplate, were more palatable to--frankly--a white audience, and that's really their major accomplishment. But rock & roll is about more than musicianship; it's about style. And, stylistically, Elvis set the pattern. Haley didn't.

Or, if you like, Haley opened the door, but Elvis (and Carl Perkins and Gene Vincent et al.) walked through it.

Artists I'm considering:

Miles, Robert Johnson, Coltrane (someone's gotta help represent the jazz contigent), Billie, Leadbelly, and as much as I hate myself for it.... Elvis.

Sorry nicolas, but Haley's not getting any votes from this direction either. True, he beat Elvis to the punch by being the first whitey rock n' roll artist to hit the mainstream by fusing r&b and c&w, but that's not enough to sway me. Like schleuse pointed out, it comes down to differences in musical style and public image; for me, Haley's music sounds too arranged, too calculated. His attempt to relate to his country roots through a western swing combo comes off sounding like a forced version of rockabilly. On the other hand there's Elvis, whose early Sun sides didn't even have drums, and he was the archetype of rockabilly (young, white, southern, pronounced accent) even after he no longer fit the image. Haley was already balding and looking middle-aged by the time his career took off.

Decision: the Pelvis.

Would anyone really be considering Elvis for a Hall of Acclaim if this was 1960? Only silly kids I think.

What about someone like Judy Garland?

Shout-out to Bessie Smith? Nice.

I disagree about Woody and Dust Bowl Ballads, though, mismaiome. Yeah, it was a unique, one-off kind of quasi-album, but it's a lot better than "awful." I used to play it for my students when we read Steinbeck, and even people who were born when the album was 50 years old responded to it well. (Except the country fans--go figure.)

As with all great rockers, a lot of Woody's appeal is attitude and style. However, you may notice that I'm not voting for him. 96% of the reason he's on this list is because he was Dylan's idol. I can make an argument for Hank, Elvis, Duke and...Chuck Berry as belonging to a coherent tradition. However, Guthrie's kind of an outlier. The acid test of whether an artist fits into a tradition--what other acts would you put on a bill with Guthrie? Pete Seeger? The Weavers? He may have been most likely to appear with George Wallace (the only Christian Buddhist socialist to have been vice president of the US).

So, I guess I'm discounting music if it looks like its influence on rock happens after 1959.

More crucially, his music evokes only nostalgia in me, which is not enough.

If not the Woodman, then who?
My greatest pre-1955 artist is Hank Williams.
My greatest pre-1948 artist is either Robert Johnson or Jimmie Rodgers.

But I agree with nicolas that I'd like to focus on early rockers in the early elections. I might reserve a slot for great jazz artists--Duke, obviously, but maybe Louis, Miles and Coltrane for sure. Holliday and Mingus are maybes.

****

Separate topic: does anybody know much about gospel, especially in its influence on rock vocals? I'm very weak on gospel; the only gospel artist on this site I think I've even heard is Mahalia Jackson. I was brought up agnostic (in Texas, yet!), so I always felt a little funny about gospel music. But its influence on rock vocals is clear, and I'd like to get a handle on that and see if there's anyone I'm overlooking.

If Judy Garland, why not Kate Smith?

Related songstresses on this site I will not be voting for, ever: Fanny Brice, Barbara Streisand, Bette Midler, and Celene Dion.

Where's the rock?

Are these votes ranked?

Gospel? Aside from Mahalia Jackson...

James Cleveland
Famous Ward Singers
Dixie Hummingbirds
Silver Echoes
Skylight Singers
Pilgrim Travelers
Soul Stirrers
Five Blind Boys of Mississippi
Bells of Joy

The first crossover of gospel and r&b was in the early 50s -- The Dominoes ("Sixty Minute Man") is one of the first examples. Clyde McPhatter was the vocalist, who then went on to form the Drifters. Jackie Wilson was in the Dominoes too, and after leaving, scored hits like "Lonely Teardrops" and "(Your Love Keeps Lifting Me) Higher and Higher".

There's Sam Cooke too, who started with the Soul Stirrers. And don't forget about Blind Charles Robinson too.

Agnostic? Is that the "don't know" group, or the "can't know" group, schleuse? (I was raised the same way).

mismaiome,

Good call on Bessie Smith, but she has no chance.

Not "rock" enough for this crowd.

Hey, I can't let you say such things about Woody Guthrie
The only thing that can be said against him is that he took a lot from The Carter Family.
I really love his Dust Bowl Ballads album. It's a great document on the Depression, it's witty, it's rebellious.

As expected, I'm not getting a lot of support on Haley.
OK, but first I still put Elvis. He's the absolute reference as early as 1960. Mismaiome, read your history books and stop that talk about silly boys.He's an icon in 1960.

Bessie Smith was the next "unacclaimed" artist I was planning on writing about. I think she's rock and roll.

(Sorry, earlier I was saying Bessie Smith started recording in 1922, but made a typo.)

Can't agree about Woody, sowwy. The Great Dust Storm, Talkin' Dust Bowl Blues, Dust Can't Kill Me, Dust Pneumonia Blues, Blowin' Down This Road, Dust Bowl Refugee, Dust Bowl Blues, Dusty Old Dust...

If you think that's witty, read the complete works of your average mediocre poet.

Surely he has his charm; but more of a hindsight kinda charm. ("Woo! I'm listening to someone who inspired Bob Dylan. Pretty neat. I guess this music is old, and old music is pretty cool.")

Why listen to Guthrie Dylan-wise when you can listen to Anthology of American Folk Music?


He's the absolute reference as early as 1960. Mismaiome, read your history books and stop that talk about silly boys.He's an icon in 1960.


Absolute reference for 20th century music? You have got to be kidding me.

Maybe you mean reference for rock, a new and limited genre, the newest fad, hardly the end-all be-all, especially back then. But we have plenty of time of early rock later on, like the late 60's, when we'll be all nostalgic and teary-eyed. For now, though, it's like us inducting The Arcade Fire soon as we get to 2008's HOA.

I have no idea who in their right mind would ever put Garland within 5 feet of those other names, schleuse. (jesting, jesting)

Me, I'm saying she's the greatest English-speaking female & white popular singer of the 20th century. And I see little point in a rock bias - if you'll remember, lots of historians think music went awfully wrong with rock, and that the golden age was before that.

(One kind of snobbery to counter another.)

If you doubt Garland's powers, listen to Live at Carnegie Hall. I think it's the greatest live album ever, even though it came out in 1961 as opposed to 1960. But she didn't magically become that much better in the course of 1 year - it's merely her finest moment, not really that far away from the other ones.

Listen:



And I feel bad about not mentioning Ella Fitzgerald. If Holiday was one side of the coin, Fitzgerald was the other, and at the very least as good.

So there. I mentioned her.

Well, the point of a rock bias is that without it, this site wouldn’t exist in the form Henrik created it. Rock & roll is the organizing genre, the magnetic north, for the vast majority of the music on this site. There’s a reason that the number of acclaimed songs remains very low until a big spike in 1954-56. It’s a rock list, assembled from the combined opinions of (mostly) rock critics.

(Is that a limitation? Well, yes, but better the bias should be rock than bluegrass or polka or show tunes, because, as Paul pointed out once (I think), the amazing thing about rock & roll is that it’s very powerful and very flexible.)

Yes, there are critics who think the golden age was before 1950. But those critics are talking about a very different musical universe than the one we usually talk about here. I’d just point out that while it’s true that this site includes music by Garland and Gershwin and Kate Smith and Astaire and the Andrews Sisters and Der Bingle (even Bob Hope's in here), most of the pre-1950 stuff here is proto-rock: blues, early country and bluegrass, swing, gospel and so forth.

So: I do not doubt Garland’s powers (and, actually, I have heard both of her Carnegie Hall albums). But it’s not music that speaks to me; my preferred female vocal tradition is all about Karen O, Shirley Manson, PJ Harvey, Annie Lennox, Exene Cervenka, Chrissie Hynde, Debbie Harry, Patti Smith, Aretha Franklin, Janis Joplin, Ronnie Spector, LaVern Baker, Billie Holiday, Ella Fitzgerald, and Bessie Smith.

And, with my rock bias freely admitted, I think a 1960 election without Elvis would be like starting the baseball HOF in 1939 and not including Babe Ruth. I won’t cry if Elvis doesn’t get in—he’s not a particular favorite of mine—but, whatever his limitations, he’s the figure most clearly associated with the beginning of rock.

After giving it some thought, these are my votes : First, the two greatest rock’n rollers (I’m trying to pick the most acclaimed, influential and representative artists, and not my favourite ones. The artist poll was made for that)

1. Elvis Presley : the logical first one
2. Chuck Berry : the major figure of rock’n roll, and the first songwriter

Then, a few pre-rock artists.

In my opinion, rock and pop music were influenced by 3 major genres

- pre-50s pop : from Tin Pan Alley to the Italian crooners via the big bands à la Glenn Miller : one major figure imo is Frank Sinatra for his vocal abilities and innovations (not a true “sing along” singer, he invented his own phrasing, and he was the first real star in the sense that his image was as important as his music); then Billie Holiday

- country & western : my pick would be Hank Williams : listen to Move It On Over (1947), it is exactly the same melody as Rock Around The Clock; then the big pre-war artists like Jimmie Rodgers, The Carter Family, with special mention for Bob Wills and western swing for being one of the very root styles that gave birth to rnr)

So far, my picks are the same as Greg’s (not surprisingly I would say)

- rhythm & blues : here, things get more complicated, because there are no outstanding artists and 1960 is too soon for Ray Charles. There are outstanding styles : shouters
who were backed by big bands (Joe Turner), jump blues (smaller combos, sax & piano-oriented music: Louis Jordan would be my pick, he used to rock ten years before Bill Haley with songs like Choo Choo Ch’Boogie), West Coast softer r&b (Nat King Cole, Percy Mayfield, the young Ray Charles), and Mississippi and Chicago blues (Muddy Waters and Robert Johnson, but I think 1960 is also too soon for them, they really were re-discovered circa 1963-65 and notably thanks to the British invasion), and last, doo-wop and vocal groups, but before 1955, there were no major artists

Maybe a good solution would be a New Orleans artist, because New Orleans and Southern Louisiana R&B was very innovative in terms of rhythm . So my pick will be Fats Domino because he was a r&b star before rock’n roll ever existed, then shifted to rock’n roll without changing his music. And plus he was one of the biggest sellers of the era.
Little Richard will be for next year.
-

hey, yer babblin' mind machines, add some Mamie vs Bessie Smith verbal fist fight to that debate, as exciting as it already is... nj (always kindly on miss maio's side)

nj, once again you're betraying me

.... if I decipher you right

once again??... that wasn't definitely my intention, nicolas. I just share some sympathy for miss maio's controversial cross fire arguments, that's all. and since I've noticed that we both have the same annual favourites from the Sound Of The City book, I'm deeply... speechlessly... aggrieved..
Woody Guthrie is alright, but somehow I prefer the darker seams of America's 20th Century roots... well, not necessarily Judy Garland, for that matter..

awright
I was kiddin' you
Me touchy today ? Maybe so...

and I'm not interested in controversy for the sake of it

well, then you should be... could requicken your twilight libido..

Stony silence greeted the ballot format I proposed on Saturday. I gather, then, that nobody thought it was terrible. To reiterate, here’s the plan:

“Everybody submits a ranked top ten. Scoring is linear: your top choice gets 10 points, your #2 gets 9 points...down to your #10, which gets 1 point. The artists with the top four aggregate point totals are our lucky inductees . . . However, since ten IS a lot, I'll stipulate that you only have to explain your top five (but you can explain more if you like, natch).”

(That should also answer your question, Jonah.)

Since 1960 voting proper begins one week from today, I’d like to go ahead and firm that up. If I receive no objections today, that’ll be the ballot format.

my.... I don't allow you, young woman ! my twilight libido is ok
and you know the twilight time is the right time

I'm in, schleuse

I've got yet another "unacclaimed" artist I'd like you to consider. She's not the innovator Bill Monroe was, but there aren't too many female country music stars considered here, I guess.

Kitty Wells, a star of 50s honky tonk. You probably all know It Wasn't God Who Made Honky Tonk Angels, which was the first female country single at the top spot in America.

She recorded a lot of songs from the fallen woman stand, and inspired big country icons like Dolly Parton and Loretta Lynn to follow that path. However, she's not only an inspiration. Her songs are still heartbreakingly beautiful still. You can hear her singing her heart out.

I don't think Kitty Wells could make the same splash as Bill Monroe is capable of in this competition, but hopefully one or two of you open your eyes for her.

I'll post a youtube link here, and because you all probably know ..Honky Tonk Angels, I'll post a different, but even more beautiful song: Making Believe.

re gospel music,

i recommend anyone interested in the genre start with the goodbye babylon box set, one of the most beautifully packaged boxes available. the music is good too

http://www.amazon.com/Goodbye-Babylon-Various-Artists/dp/B0000DBOCB/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1214338863&sr=1-1

As I said before, there is no major r&b figure (except maybe Chicago bluesmen but their time will come later). Charlie Gillett favors Roy Brown which is not a bad idea, but I prefer Louis Jordan. He was both popular and full of talent, and his hits sound like rock n roll records. The influence on Bill Haley is obvious, but Haley put more emphasize on the beat. And it was recorded in January 1946, so one year before Good rocking Tonight by Roy Brown and 5 years before Rocket 88. I’ve been listening to a lot of music of this era, and to my ears it’s the first hit that really sounds like rock’n roll. And it had a big success on the black and white audiences as well, like Fats, Chuck and Little Richard would have 10 years later.

That's great, Nicolas. I've heard Caldonia by Louis Jordan before, which is also a great track. It's number 1142 on AM Songs. I've listened to this quite a lot, but for some reason never checked out anything other by him. Maybe I should do just that.

About gospel : every label before 1960 had gospel artists (even Sun, I remember hearing an excellent white gospel group on a compilation).
In addition to the good list provided by Anthony, I ‘ll add The Golden Gate Quartet , Sister Rosetta Tharpe, and the guitar evangelists of th ‘20s like Blind Willie Johnson, Washington Philips who played a strange instrument called Dolceola, and Reverend Gary Davis who recorded in the 1960’s and was a guitar virtuoso.
French label Frémeaux has excellent gospel compilations and one about country gospel.
Gospel was hugely influential especially through the vocal groups’ style : The Ink Spots, the Ravens, and especially the Dominoes were the first to sing gospel music with very un-gospel lyrics like “Sixty Minute Man”, or Ray Charles with “I Got A Woman”.

This is Washington Philips in 1927 (don't look at this awful clip, just listen to the music)

these are potentially my 10 votes for the first round...feel free to applaud/attack

1. Elvis - i think we're coming dangerously close to a revisionist view of Elvis where he is just some random white guy who happened to make black music palatable to white people. this man had TALENT. he lived and breathed music, sang and performed truly soulfully, and brought james dean's sex appeal to music. others shamelessly and mindlessly stole black music, but elvis was a unique artist.

2. Chuck - the first great rock guitarist - i get goosebumps every time i hear him sing "hail hail rock and roll"

3. Hank - THE fount of country music, always an influence on rock

4. Frank - basically what paul said. incredible range.

5. Buddy - a whole new kind of cool. good songwriter, too

6. Woody - HILARIOUS. don't know what sinder's talking about. he has some line like "if the soup were any thinner, maybe some of these here politicians could have seen through it". very humane too. i love that picture of him where his guitar has a sticker on it that says "this machine kills fascists". that was a new kind of righteous humor in music

7. Richard - a maniac. a conduit for pure rnr electricity

these last 3 spots are up for grabs, but here's what i'm thinking

8. Jerry Lee - a maniac. his debut was great, but it was live at the star club, recorded in '64 and released in '80, that really sold me on him...

9. Duke - for the record, i AM thinking of this as a rock and roll HOF, and am really only considering artists who had a clear and definite influence on the main currents of rock music. i'm with schleuse here - i think it would be silly to consider it a 20th century music HOF. let's face it, the final list will probably have 5-10 jazz artists in it, no more. to claim that that's a fair representation would be even MORE of an insult to jazz than the outright exclusion of it would be. however, in east st. louis toodle-oo, i can hear the whole dark voodoo sound of rnr foretold.

10. Robert - i realize he wasn't really "discovered" until a few years later, but he's going to have to be inaugurated at some point

other contenders for these last 3 spots - Muddy, Cash, Billie, Monroe, Sarah, Bo

Fine. First year and no jazz. This bodes hilarious consequences for every year that follows. Have fun.


I prefer the darker seams of America's 20th Century roots... well, not necessarily Judy Garland, for that matter..


Well, Garland's not quite lightweight. Take out Billie's abuse, keep the drugs, add suicidal problems, make her white, and tada. Judy Garland. Fits.

Music's all the sadder with a vaguely happy shine, right? All that doom and gloom, fine, fun, but even better if you smile right through it.

And no Greg - who told you that?

I think the darkness is even cooler if you have a flashlight. Alleviates the palette. Stirs it up a bit.

Oh, as for Elvis and Woody and others. To quote meself...

Everything is fun for exactly 10 seconds. It's just that sometimes those seconds go on for months or years!

Well, if we're going to give Judy Garland credit for singing happy while having an horrific personal life, let's just fast-track Karen Carpenter right now, shall we?

(ahem) Yes, that was a little bitchy.

Seriously, Judy belongs alongside Elvis and Chuck Berry about as much as I belong with LeBron James and Kevin Garnett.

Or, in the case of libidos, for bazillions of generations.

Now that's what I call overrated.

btw, nicolas--good call on Louis Jordan. I'll have to give him a serious look.

Seriously, Judy belongs alongside Elvis and Chuck Berry about as much as I belong with LeBron James and Kevin Garnett.


Right down to every word, schleuse. She's far above them.

Or did you mean style instead of substance?

I meant genre. (Which encompasses both style and substance.)

Well.

Elvis sang dumb happy songs happily.

Chuck wrote and sang dumb happy songs happily. (ding-a-ling!)

Judy sang (some) happy songs in a sad way. And they were smarter too.

So?

You know, between Ravel's "Bolero" and, say, Berry's "Johnny B. Goode", the only real difference is they didn't have electric guitars back then.

It's not about the energy (constant), snobbery (equal), history (reliant on snobbery). It's about the context, and instruments is all there is to it.

Any song, though, could have been tastefully done with any instruments whatsoever. It would mean something entirely different in its new incarnation, coz we can't help it, but it could be done.

Jazz is so close to rock, they're almost the same thing. When you try out deep perspective, in any case.

I suggest looking past the instruments and staring at the songs.

Which is, of course, hard when the main question of human existence is: "in what ways shall I be smug?"

Aye, grab onto every little arbitrary thing... Like... choice of instrumentz!

It's a question of "is how better than what?"

With humans having so few things to communicate, I guess they tend to latch onto subtle distinctions like these.

Right, to show you how deep bias goes, let's play a little game.

Give me one reason why pre-1960 Elvis is any worthier than pre-1960 Muddy Waters.

If you want to play history, the latter was more important.

If you want to play soulfulness, again.

If you want to play smoothness, once more.

If you want to play immediacy, also.

If you want to play talent, guess who wins again.

And so on.

The one place where Muddy loses is popularity, which seems to be the deciding factor.

Can we realize we inherit bias from one another and try to find some way around that problem?

Or are we stuck like this?

stuck?

you don't like elvis. fine.

let's move on.

No no no no no

Elvis Presley is the most significant icon in pop culture of the last 60 years - there's no questioning that. He changed the world. Elvis didn't invent rock n'roll,but without him,it would never have become the most significant music of the 20th century.

We're on a rock site
Rock is a popular art
So popularity has its importance in this HOA
Of course ther are shadow men in rock (the Velvet Underground, Muddy Waters)and they'll be inducted too.
BUt Elvis is rock, whether you like it or not
Oh my god, I thought that with jonmarck gone, there wouldn't be those endless arguments about Elvis..

I have an idea
Why not, in addition to the 5 inductees each year, nominating one "shadow man", either a producer, a non-singing songwriter or a pair of them, a TV man... ?

stuck?

you don't like elvis. fine.

let's move on.


It appears I am doomed to be eternally misunderstood! Yikes.

You're used to people having a single opinion, and arguing for it.

Person 1: "You're vegetarian?"
Person 2: "Yep."
Person 1: "No meat?"
Person 2: "Don't eat meat! Don't! It's inhumane, it's wrong, it's EVIL! Come on, it doesn't take a big effort to eat veggies and save the lives of cute little innocent animalz, so long as everyone starts doing it at the same time..."
Person 1: "Yeah, well. You're vegetarian. Of course you'd say that."

This "don't like it? move along", "if you didn't like it why did you read it?", "don't like the way we do things, leave" & variations' rubbish is one of the classic I don't feel like explaining myself ad-hoc arguments. Working since ancient times. Better think of something new.

As for me, just to screw with your assumption, I do honestly like Elvis. A whole lot.

What do you make of that?

"But it doesn't work that way."

No? Guess what. For me it does.


Elvis Presley is the most significant icon in pop culture of the last 60 years - there's no questioning that. He changed the world. Elvis didn't invent rock n'roll,but without him,it would never have become the most significant music of the 20th century.


Icon. Lots of folks are icons. Like Britney Spears, Christina Aguilera, Nelly, Celine Dion, and so forth.

The quality of being an icon means nothing in real terms, knowing it's one of the most ambiguous niceties you could ascribe to anyone.

Biggest icon, though? Does that make all the difference?


there's no questioning that.


There is, however, the questioning of the worth of being an icon in the first place.


He changed the world.


Who didn't?


it would never have become the most significant music of the 20th century.


Did you try it out and check that for sure?

Oh, come on, Midaso. You of all people. You can't stand The Beatles for exactly the same reasons, remember?


We're on a rock site
Rock is a popular art
So popularity has its importance in this HOA


Popularity is a flaw whenever someone you dislike has it (Spears, Aguilera, Nelly, etc. tralala). And it is a wonderful virtue when someone you like has it.

I think that makes popularity obsolete.


Oh my god, I thought that with jonmarck gone, there wouldn't be those endless arguments about Elvis..


The argument is not so much about Elvis as it is about silly snobbery.

The point, like I've said before, the way I see it, is not to decide which music you dislike, but to enjoy as much as you can.

But if you're going to raise generic criticisms against the artists you dislike (Garland), you better make sure they don't apply to who you like too (Elvis, Berry - as light as feathers).

If not, we're just foolin' around, and arguments are secondary to opinions.

this guy's 10X worse than jonmarck

Ad hominem time?

(And I'm not even a guy.)

I think you're reading what I'm saying and seeing what you like.

And replying with famous witty one-liners whenever you disagree.

thanks for pointing out each and every fallacy of logic.

maybe if your tone weren't so condescending more people would engage in the kind of argument you're looking for.

maybe if your tone weren't so condescending more people would engage in the kind of argument you're looking for.


Well, herein lies another problem.

Whenever someone says something, you have exactly 2 possible reactions during Phase 1:

1) "Maybe they're right! Let me think about this."

Or

2) "How dare they disagree with me!!"

The mere capacity to disagree become condescension in your eyes, if you go for option 2).

Now let's try something else. Take a look around you, and think of your entire life. Condescension is one of the two most common attitudes of humans, together with deference.

The only way to ever prove anything, or to make any progress whatsoever, or to even express your opinion, is to be condescending to an extent.

Therefore, because condescension is universal and fundamental, your criticism of me is fairly generic. Your argument is therefore secondary to your opinion.

Or are you implying you're not condescending, and it's just me?

Because it's not.

Then again, you've already made up your mind that my style of explaining is a faux pas in the first place. Even if it's a hopeful style.

please don't answer greg or it will go on and on and on...

no worries

(high five)

Yeah yeah. "Don't answer. This person is wrong, we're right, no point in it. We're not getting anywhere." Alright, dismiss me out of hand so you can feel better.

When an argument is going nowhere, hopefully one of the parts will be wise enough to end it.

When an argument is going nowhere


Did anyone even bother to reply to any of my points?

Elvis had the Janis Joplin effect. Raspy voice makes all the difference. Remove the voice, and the songs aren't any good.

And if I say prove me wrong, or don't dismiss half a century of music, no one cares, eh?

Sheesh. Even in the cyber world, us guys can't get away from annoying females.

Sheesh. Even in the cyber world, us guys can't get away from annoying females.


What's the point of a HOA if no one's going to disagree with you? Might as well write down the final results from the beginning.

Hey, I'm all for a good argument, but it's the delivery of your argument that's questionable; it's confusing and impossible to follow. You seem to engage in these self-contained logic debates, and more often than not, it just comes across as you having a conversation with yourself. You're leaving a verbal fart-trail all over these threads. And that's what's annoying.

it's confusing and impossible to follow


So? Mad philosopher speeches. What did you expect?

If you want me to clarify anything, I'm right here, though.

My main point is this thread is simply that Elvis' pelvis doesn't beat everyone and everything.

Pelvis-wise, folks like Muddy Waters are neater. But what's the point of the pelvis anyway?

Deep space philosophy like this.

Can we discuss instead of wisecracking?

Even in the cyber world, us guys can't get away from annoying females.

...who keep whining about the rejection of The Long And Winding Road aallllll day long...

First, why don't you introduce yourself (with simple words if possible) inthe geodemographic thread
That's a tradition for all newcomers here
i like to know who I'm discussing with

It already has, nicolas...

Nope. Introductions are for sissies.

And I'm not a newcomer either. I've been here as long as anyone.

I'd go as far as saying I'm not even an it.

Not as long as Moonbeam...

Almost.

and that's where it all went wrong, miss maio. courageous heating doesn't equal crying dewdrops..

Even if the dewdrops are someone else's sweat?

not even from a dwarf. no.

But I vouch for tiebreaker midgets.

forget this. don't vouch for f**kin napkins

We're talking about different things.